#230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

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hailthorn011
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#230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since I was :black: last time, I figure it makes sense to swap colors for a second game. Best of luck, Moyoaji!

I am going to approach this game differently than the last game. I feel I blundered too many times and often in critical situations. My goal for this game will be simply to play better than my last game. And I also plan to bring a far more patient approach this time around.

As an aside, I used to hate playing white, but now I sort of prefer it. There's a certain freedom to making :black: choose which opening to go with. Will they use the Chinese Opening? Or maybe the San-ren-sei? Or neither? Either way, I'll find out.
Last edited by hailthorn011 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alright. Let the game begin again. Although, I will point out, you misspelled my name this time. :razz:

It is moyoaji, as in a framework that contains weakness. Moyaji is perhaps more interesting, however. There was a British iron ship called the Moy launched in 1885. At least 74 people were reported to have died on it during its 20 years of service and it eventually went missing several months after its most deadly voyage. I suppose Moyaji could refer to weaknesses in this vessel that lead to its demise.

Nothing fancy. I'm going to play my usual game and that means a Low Chinese is incoming. I shall show hailthorn the go of moyoaji!

I have played this fuseki dozens of times (maybe even over 100 times) and I have studied a couple dozen pro games that feature it. Assuming my opponent doesn't do something crazy in the opening (tengen, 6-4s, or sudden approaches) I will have this by move 5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last game I won on a tactical error. I expect no such luck this time. My opponent will make adjustments, but I will also improve. The comments in the last game showed that I made some direction of play errors, and my lack of joseki knowledge hindered me. But it is for honor and glory that I play! So I will use my knowledge of the Low Chinese to my advantage and secure my 2nd straight win.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Sorry about that spelling error.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I usually play almost exclusively on the star points in my opening, so I'll change things up a bit and play here.
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not a problem. ;)

Top left or bottom right? Top left or bottom right?

So I picked this for two reasons. 1. I don't want my opponent to get an enclosure facing one of their stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Low Chinese vs. Orthodox
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2. One of the goals of the Low Chinese is to build from the side your 3-4 isn't facing (in the case of the move I actually played, I'll want to build the bottom) and if I let my opponent get an orthodox opening like this I won't be as incentivized to build the left.

This, way, however, if my opponent gets an enclosure then taking a large side extension on the bottom would be doubly ideal. Reducing my opponent's potential to make an ideal extension and making an ideal extension for myself at the same time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Perfection!
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Bill Spight
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures-
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Allows White to stay even easily.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Even
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c At least even
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The reason that I say, "At least even", is that Go Seigen likes mukai komoku, the White formation on the left side. For one thing, Black does not have a good approach to the top left corner that works with the 4-4 stone in the top right corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Probably better
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Why is this probably better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Good move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because after, say, :w4:, :b5: is a good move, working well with :b3:. So are other approaches to the bottom left corner. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I'm nice and balanced. I'm interested in seeing where :black: will go from here.

Also, I got a new Go board today! And that brings my total to 3 Go boards. Of course one of them still doesn't have stones for it.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the question is: where will my opponent go from here?

I don't think he can copy me from here. If he does and I take the bottom star point it would be nearly as devastating as if he'd made an enclosure.

I expect he will either approach the bottom from the outside, in which case I will make my enclosure, or he will approach the top.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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skydyr
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the question is: where will my opponent go from here?

I don't think he can copy me from here. If he does and I take the bottom star point it would be nearly as devastating as if he'd made an enclosure.

I expect he will either approach the bottom from the outside, in which case I will make my enclosure, or he will approach the top.


I think the most developable portion of the Board is actually the top side, with two high stones facing each other, rather than the bottom side, with two low stones. Whoever makes an enclosure there concedes the bottom side to the opponent, which in turn concedes preventing the other enclosure, and you're left with relatively low territory groups. This may be the correct way to play for white now, but I'm not certain. White could also certainly take the top, and deal with a standard black approach by pincering to ruin the bottom for black, or a backside approach on the bottom by enclosing relatively normally. Does anyone else have an opinion about this?
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The Chinese Opening! My nemesis. I'm not going to lie. I hate playing against this opening. But this is a move someone taught me awhile back and it's my typical response.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As expected he approached the bottom. This idea used to be very popular up until modern times (10 years ago or so). Nowadays pros usually approach the top, but this is still okay. However, this approach move is closer than usual. From my understanding the "standard" approach move is a long-knight, not a small knight. There are a few problems with this.

1st, if he pulls back to make a high base, it now leaves a 6-space extension instead of a 5-space extension. This is very important because if I want to attack this group later I can make my own 2-space extension between it and his 3-4 stone without touching either.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 6 space extension is bad...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , c c c c c c O . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . B . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2nd, being closer is also problematic because it does incentivize me to attack this later. My corner enclosure is fairly strong; he shouldn't be this close to it. An attack from here is more severe.

3rd, it makes teunki harder. If he doesn't try to help his stone now it can be attacked harshly. I was told tenuki is actually okay from the long-knight approach as attacking it is more difficult. I may tenuki an approach on the top to pincer, or perhaps cap, his stone if he doesn't respond to this.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually I'd go for the middle star point here, but I also have to think about my D3 stone, and I feel a move at K3 works better with it.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So yeah, my opponent had to make an uncomfortable 3-space "base" that leaves me attacking options for later. I'm thinking of playing at M3 sometime in the future.

With this move I want to do two things. 1st, I'm playing on the largest side of the board. I'd like to get a base here to keep white from developing. And 2nd, I want to keep white low on the bottom. Since I have the invasion/reduction/attack at M3 I'm not worried about white making many points on the bottom.

I doubt white will pincer. His group on the bottom is too weak when I get out toward the center and begin to move toward it I will cut him apart.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I figured :black: would play here, and I already had this move planned for just such an occasion. This sequence will allow me to solidify the bottom.

:black:'s right side isn't solid yet. So there are moves there in the future. Presently, I feel quite comfortable with my positioning on the board.
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Avalanche looks really fun for black here, but I'm not certain if it's the best idea or not. I expected perhaps the outside attachment by white, or F4, if white's not going to pincer. If he was, the two space high pincer seemed fine, and maybe the one space as well, since white has K3. The one space low pincer also seems like a possibility.
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by VincentCB »

skydyr wrote:Avalanche looks really fun for black here, but I'm not certain if it's the best idea or not.
FWIW, avalanche was also my first feeling. On the other hand, if black simply plays the usual hane, :w8: might end up looking overconcentrated, which would be a good enough result for black.
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