Corner Situation in Club Game

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
Post Reply
User avatar
moyoaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 773
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:53 pm
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Location: Michigan, USA
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 218 times

Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by moyoaji »

In a club game tonight I got into a situation where I tried to play a move in sente that would let my stones connect, but my opponent ignored and kept me cut. I had read that black could do no better than ko in the corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Anything but ko?
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . . . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
I was able to kill the corner, but my opponent felt he could've lived if he'd played better. Was I wrong? Does black have a way to live in the corner without an unfavorable ko? Or even is there a way for white to kill without the ko? Looking at varitions on my own I don't think a ko is avoidable.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . 3 . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X C X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
For those wondering how this developed. This was the general idea (I don't remember everything about the surrounding stones perfectly, but the corner situation is accurate.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 :b8: tenuki
$$ | . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . . 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 Later...
$$ | . 0 X X X O . .
$$ | 8 . . . . 3 . .
$$ | 7 4 X . X . . .
$$ | 9 5 O O . . . .
$$ | . 6 X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O . .
$$ | . . 2 . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 And finally...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | . . . X O O 2 .
$$ | . 3 X . X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
SmoothOper
Lives in sente
Posts: 946
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:38 am
Rank: IGS 5kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by SmoothOper »

Is that a ko?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | . X X O O . X .
$$ | b 3 . X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X 6 X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 a . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | 9 X X O O . X .
$$ | 8 3 0 X O O X .
$$ | . 1 X 6 X O . .
$$ | . 2 . 4 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1 This is the ko I foresaw...
$$ | X . . . . O O O
$$ | O X X . X . X .
$$ | O O O O . X . .
$$ | O X X O O . X .
$$ | 3 O X X O O X .
$$ | 1 O X X X X O . .
$$ | 2 X X . X O O . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
User avatar
moyoaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 773
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:53 pm
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Location: Michigan, USA
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 218 times

Re: Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by moyoaji »

Uh... First, your last diagram is not of the same board position. Second, white can play like this:

Attachments
StillKoForLife.sgf
(206 Bytes) Downloaded 505 times
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by Bill Spight »



:)

:w11: is a mistake.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
User avatar
moyoaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 773
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:53 pm
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Location: Michigan, USA
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 218 times

Re: Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by moyoaji »

Thanks Bill.

Yes, :w11: is clearly a mistake. Without that move black is just dead.

It does look like an interesting position can come out of this. By avoiding kos I think both sides could achieve life.

"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
User avatar
ez4u
Oza
Posts: 2414
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:15 pm
Rank: Jp 6 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: ez4u
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 2351 times
Been thanked: 1332 times

Re: Corner Situation in Club Game

Post by ez4u »

The White play at F1 is a waste of time if White is going to connect at F2. White plays the ko.

However, instead of D2, doesn't Black just play A4? How will White prevent Black from living?

Edit: Oops, wrong again. A4 looks like ko also after A5. :sad:
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
Post Reply