Playing on the 4-4 point in 13x13

[joellercoaster]

OK, so it makes sense to me that the joseki don't work in the same way in 13x13, and in general that the whole-board opening is different.

But the people I'm playing against (almost all of my own sort of level) seem to be playing the fuseki almost like 19x19 without the sides. In particular I've seen most of them play one corner on the 4-4 point. Invading it straight away at 3-3, the standard joseki ends up with them herding me along one side, and me ending up with sente and a good starting position (which I sometimes fritter away due to being crap, but generally it works out well). If they "block on the open side" I can attack the corner, leaving them with a wall facing it and less scope for expansion. If they block the "wrong" way, then that's no good either.

If they deviate from the joseki as we both understand it, it always seems to end up even worse. At best they end up controlling the top of the board but are concentrated in a way that can be pinned back and territorially behind.

Is opening (particularly for white, which is most of my opponents) on the 4-4 point in 13x13 just a bad idea? Or just it just require more tactical nous than we 20-odd kyu players have?

(Which amounts to the same thing I guess - "should I simply avoid it at this point?" is another way to ask the question.)

[paK0]

I have to admit that I know nothing about 13*13 opening theory, but I assume that it is perfectly playable.

In your case of the instant 3*3 invasion you give you opponent a nice wall that can control the board quite well, even more so since the board is smaller, so its harder to play away from the wall.

I think it comes down to the fact that your opponents cannot use the wall quite as well as they should, this will change once you get better, maybe at the SDK level? (I'm DDK and have trouble with that as well^^). The territory you get out of the 3*3 invasion is always gonna be worth the same, but how much you can get out of the wall changes along with your skill.

But as always, the better players are free to correct me.

[emerus]

Is opening (particularly for white, which is most of my opponents) on the 4-4 point in 13x13 just a bad idea? Or just it just require more tactical nous than we 20-odd kyu players have?

(Which amounts to the same thing I guess - "should I simply avoid it at this point?" is another way to ask the question.)

Yea, I think I'd avoid the middling type of move and either play 3rd line stones or Tengen. I think it would be more educational to play the polar extremes.

I think you should play whatever you're curious about. If you have some questions about a move then try it out a few times. But if you just feel like it's bad, then maybe avoid it.

[HermanHiddema]

Can you post some diagrams of what you mean?

What do you mean with block on the open side and block the "wrong" way?

Generally, there nothing wrong with 4-4 on 13x13, and invading it immediately sounds like a bad idea.

[emerus]

Oh yeah, I think I misunderstood the OP too.



It's not good to invade under the 4-4 early on. (Especially not on the 2nd move!) Even if you come out with the corner territory and sente, black will control the remainder of the board with thickness and win easily.

There are better tactics for dealing with the 4-4 that might make it slightly sub-optimal.

[joellercoaster]

Aha.

Not on the second move certainly - generally after me playing on a couple of corners somewhere on the third line. Generally my opponent has indicated an interest in one of the corners as well, but nobody has played along an edge.

By "open" and "wrong" sides I meant trying to follow this advice: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BlockOnTheWiderSide

It feels like, if I am blocked towards his corner, then the tail of my extension is already turning into an approach move as well. But I am blocked towards my corner, then the wall facing his own corner ends up getting its moyo quickly dented because the centre of the board is so small - in the meantime I can threaten to connect. Again, this is mostly playing as black because I try to play people a bit stronger whenever I can (hooray for OGS ladders).

From what people are saying here, it sounds like the 4-4 point is not actually less useful, but possibly harder to exploit for beginners. It's all very interesting!

[edit: That said, any recommended reading for ways of exploiting your own thickness towards the centre?]

[Uberdude]

I prefer to play 3-3 or 3-4 on 13×13 as the centre is smaller so influence is less valuable and the corner territory more important. I won't say 4-4 is a mistake but I am happy when my opponent plays it as they always need to have a plan to get enough in exchange if you take the 3-3.

Also in our club 13×13 tournament, which is free handicap placement, it's always much harder to beat beginners on large (most I've given is 15 I think) handicaps if they place them nearer the corner.

[Kirby]

Oh yeah, I think I misunderstood the OP too.



It's not good to invade under the 4-4 early on. (Especially not on the 2nd move!) Even if you come out with the corner territory and sente, black will control the remainder of the board with thickness and win easily.

I agree that it might not be good to invade under 4-4 early on, however, for 13x13 board, 3-3 invasion is more valuable than for 19x19 board. Namely, with a standard 3-3 invasion sequence, you get the same amount of territory for both board sizes - let's say around 10 points. For a 19x19 board, 10 points is less significant than for a 13x13 board, because there are less points available.

In your diagram, white has sente, so after the 3-3 invasion, white can live somewhere else, now. In this case, the influence that black gets from 3-3 will likely turn into territory, which might be more than the value of the points white gets from 3-3.

But it's not really precisely comparable to 19x19 game, because the outside manifests itself in a different way with a different board size.

The game is over so quickly that you must make fast benefit from the outside thickness - maybe this can happen with an immediate 3-3 invasion, but it's not clear that it's as profitable in all cases as 19x19 sized board.

[Bill Spight]

OK, so it makes sense to me that the joseki don't work in the same way in 13x13, and in general that the whole-board opening is different.

Yes and no.

It's different, but it is not that different. I wouldn't worry at all about joseki.

But the people I'm playing against (almost all of my own sort of level) seem to be playing the fuseki almost like 19x19 without the sides.

That makes sense.

In particular I've seen most of them play one corner on the 4-4 point. Invading it straight away at 3-3, the standard joseki ends up with them herding me along one side, and me ending up with sente and a good starting position (which I sometimes fritter away due to being crap, but generally it works out well).

IMO, the 13x13 is large enough that it should not work out any better for you than it does on the 19x19. The influence of a stone drops away rapidly on both boards. The 9x9 is small enough that the 3-3 invasion should work out better, however.

Is opening (particularly for white, which is most of my opponents) on the 4-4 point in 13x13 just a bad idea? Or just it just require more tactical nous than we 20-odd kyu players have?

To answer your second question first, the 13x13 is more tactical than the 19x19, and the 9x9 is more tactical than the 13x13. But the 13x13 still has a strategical opening.

The 4-4 is a fine opening on the 13x13, but probably not on the 9x9.

You are right, however, that you cannot simply transfer joseki from the 19x19 to the 13x13. Forget joseki.

I am no expert on the 13x13, but here is an SGF file with some thoughts on the 13x13 opening.

[joellercoaster]

Forget joseki.

Fear not, I only know one

I am no expert on the 13x13, but here is an SGF file with some thoughts on the 13x13 opening.

Oh, awesome. Thank you, everyone! Plenty to chew over.

[Bill Spight]

From what people are saying here, it sounds like the 4-4 point is not actually less useful, but possibly harder to exploit for beginners. It's all very interesting!

I suspect that you are right that it is harder to exploit. Note that in my SGF file I thought that White should not respond to the approach. That may be so with other corner plays as well, but third line plays are closer to forming a base than the 4-4, and can handle a pincer more easily than the 4-4 can handle a double approach.

That said, any recommended reading for ways of exploiting your own thickness towards the centre?

I think that experience is invaluable in that regard. If you have outward thickness, then fight fiercely. Go for the kill.

[RobertJasiek]

The 4-4 is very playable in even games and, as White, in handicap 13x13 games. In even games, quite like on the 19x19, the choice for a first corner move depends on the positional context. There have been people saying that they would not dare to play it, but I got my first tournament win (club tournament) with consistently using the 4-4 as White in handicap 3 (on the 4-4s) games. Strategy must fit the stone: flexibility is called for!