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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Not your average go journal.
Post #21 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:58 am 
Oza

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After 24 or so, doesn't fighting spirit insist that you take advantage of white's omitted move in the bottom left? This was ignored for some time before white fixed, but to my eyes it seems like free sente moves for black before the fighting started on the top side.
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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Not your average go journal.
Post #22 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:38 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
After 24 or so, doesn't fighting spirit insist that you take advantage of white's omitted move in the bottom left? This was ignored for some time before white fixed, but to my eyes it seems like free sente moves for black before the fighting started on the top side.


Sure, but at what moment exactly? That is a question :)
I had no clear vision of what I could get with playing there because I was not so sure if it would be a sente. I thought he could ignore any move I play there and just enlarge a moyo on the upper side. I thought it was a bad idea to give him great central potential so I played a reduction there first, then attacked right side with impetus I got.
It was big and I was looking at it all the time, I just didn't get a chance because all other places were still hot.

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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #23 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:39 am 
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Changed title once again.

Ok, today I played almost 3 hours game. One hour of basic time for each player and one minute byo. And we both almost lost on time...
It was no komi game and black managed to survive by 5 points (New Zealand rules). White had a chance to turn a game a few time but he made few simple mistakes.

There are a few comments in this game but they are in... Polish :) So if you want to see some strange looking words or you are brave enough you can try to read/translate them.



Attachments:
2013-12-13a.sgf [3.81 KiB]
Downloaded 426 times

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Not your average go journal.
Post #24 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:37 pm 
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lobotommy wrote:
skydyr wrote:
After 24 or so, doesn't fighting spirit insist that you take advantage of white's omitted move in the bottom left? This was ignored for some time before white fixed, but to my eyes it seems like free sente moves for black before the fighting started on the top side.


Sure, but at what moment exactly? That is a question :)
I had no clear vision of what I could get with playing there because I was not so sure if it would be a sente. I thought he could ignore any move I play there and just enlarge a moyo on the upper side. I thought it was a bad idea to give him great central potential so I played a reduction there first, then attacked right side with impetus I got.
It was big and I was looking at it all the time, I just didn't get a chance because all other places were still hot.


I guess I'm thinking immediately, before responding in the top left. Either white responds and black builds some potential on the bottom in sente, or white tenukis and there's a trade. I think if white doesn't respond immediately, white outright dies in the corner, which is a fine trade for the two stones at the top left, from black's perspective.

Alternatively, maybe after move 26 black can play on the top side and treat attaching and C10 or so as miai?
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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Not your average go journal.
Post #25 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:59 am 
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skydyr wrote:
I guess I'm thinking immediately, before responding in the top left. Either white responds and black builds some potential on the bottom in sente, or white tenukis and there's a trade. I think if white doesn't respond immediately, white outright dies in the corner, which is a fine trade for the two stones at the top left, from black's perspective.

Alternatively, maybe after move 26 black can play on the top side and treat attaching and C10 or so as miai?


Thank you for drilling this, it forced me to look over some pro games.
Examples of strategy you suggest:

W: Kiyonari Tetsuya, B: Cho Chikun
58th Oza, Final Preliminary, Group Final
2010-03-11

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 3 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Next black took point of 'a'

W: Iyama Yuta, B: Yi Yeong-ku
18th LG Cup, Round 2
2013-06-12

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . . . . . , . . . . 0 , X . . |
$$ | . . 5 O 2 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Next White played 'a' and black 'b'.

Of course there are a lot more than these two games.

I was not too familiar with this opening but now when it took my attention I will be more confident dealing with it. Thanks!

Time for study.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Not your average go journal.
Post #26 Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:04 pm 
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lobotommy wrote:
Thank you for drilling this, it forced me to look over some pro games.
Examples of strategy you suggest:


I've never actually seen games like that before, but I think everyone has seen games where black and white complete the normal joseki on both sides. It stands to reason that if white deviates, black has to deviate too, so it's just a question of where and how. The examples you provided certainly look quite playable (as you would expect, being pro games).
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #27 Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:50 am 
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I play this opening, with facing 3-4 point (mukai komoku), quite often as white.

Usually, I would just reply on the bottom left, and then black would play the same again in the top left and finish with a move halfway, i.e:


Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


However, in the game the right side has already been played a lot, and is mostly finished. Given the low position black has in the lower right, I figured it would be better to focus on the top left first, as I don't mind much if black builds influence along the bottom.

I think, therefore, that black should play the corners in the other order. If you connect in the top left first, I would respond there, and then you could have played the lower left next to get the same result as in the above diagram, but with the order :b3: :w4: :b1: :w2: :b5:

This post by HermanHiddema was liked by 2 people: lobotommy, skydyr
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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #28 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:30 am 
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Thanks Herman, I found it quite strange that I was only thinking about bottom corner and never even thought about reversing order :). It's interesting that I haven't thought about priority of corners in this situation and I can only hope to avoid mistakes like that in my future games.
I think I need to challenge you again to learn something more. Beware ;)

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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #29 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:39 am 
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Next game played with 1 hour time for each player. This time I was white and lost by 7.
During a game we discussed how much time we should have to play with no significant pressure at yose, and to feel satisfaction about quality of our play. Turned out that 3 hours would be optimal for each of us.
Pro players from the past were saying that quick games are important.... while playing 20 hours matches by themself. So what is a quick but in the same time a good game? 1 hour per player? 3 hours? If all is about a subjective quality of game then how much time is needed to feel that you are not playing some kind of ancient shooter or other arcade game but the beautiful game of go?



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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #30 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:36 am 
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It looks like my go development will stop for some time because I finally got a job after a long time of unemployment. I will spend more than hour in train everyday, so maybe then could be a good time to do some tsumego or study pro game.
Oh well, back to OGS, need to complete my 15 games there as soon as possible.

Merry Christmas!

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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Re: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #31 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:23 am 
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Newest addition to my go books collection: Fujisawa Shuko's The only move part I and II. So now in addition to these two books I need to go through:
Catching Scent of Victory, O Rissei.
Breakthrough Attacking Power Yamashita-Style, Keigo Yamashita.
The Way of Creating a Thick and Strong Game, Hane Naoki.
This is Go the Natural Way, Takemiya Masaki.
Patterns so Sanrensei, Maikeru Redomondo ;).
Invincible, John Power (yes, I haven't finished it yet.).
Tesuji and Anti-Suji of go, Sakata Eio.
Tesuji, James Davies (how did I get to my level whithout reading this book?).
A Way of playing for the 21 Century, Go Seigen.
Positional Judgment, Cho Chikun.
Vital Points and skillful Finesse of Sabaki, Yoda Norimoto.
Takao's Astute Use of Brute Force, Takao Shinji.
Oh, and two books by John Fairbairn about Go Seigen's jubango, one with Kitani Minoru (Kamakura) and one with Takagawa Kaku (Final Summit).

I already started all of them, and finished none. 16 books to choose from... Maybe finishing one book in a month would be a good idea (excluding Invincible of course) and I shouldn't buy any new books from now on. Ok, maybe just one, Games and commentaries of Honinbo Shuei by John Fairbairn... And maybe this one about games of Lee Sedol, and the one about...
My god, this is madness.

In the meantime another jubango game played with 1hour time for each player, 1 minute byo. It's one of my best games I played lately I think. A lot of mistakes in the endgame because of byo, but I survived.


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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #32 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:11 pm 
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• Tesuji and Anti-Suji of go, Sakata Eio. (problem 61/61) FINISHED

Looks like one book in a week is going to be an achievable thing for most of these books (except "Invincible" and Go Seigen's jubangos of course). I just need to approach them more methodically, not open-and-forget-next-day as I've been doing previously.

Will it improve my game in any significant way?

This Sakata Eio's book was nice but it is relatively small collection of problems, easy to go through and easy to grasp.
I'm more accustomed to modern era of mobile go apps where there are thousands of tsumego and doing a 50-100 in one session is just a norm. But a narration in this book has some educational value and is giving you a time needed to digest presented problem and method behind it - so even if there are not hundreds of problems the book can be helpful.

Next:
• The only move part I: Joseki/Fuseki, Fujisawa Shuko.

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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:10 pm 
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No time for playing. I have only 30 minutes in the morning while going to work by train and 30 minutes at the evening when coming back. Thank god for SmartGo Books.
Slow progress in Fujisawa Shuko's "The only move part I". Currently I'm on problem 20 (out of 80). It's not a book designed for speed reading. You need to focus on every problem (pro game snapshot), find out why would you play in certain way, then digest what Fujisawa said about presented board situation.
It's a heartwarming book - there are so many mistakes in pro games...

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Offline lobotommy
 Post subject: Reinventing the wheel. Just another average go journal.
Post #34 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:13 pm 
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Started watching BadukMovies again. Great stuff. This time it will be easier for me to watch them all - being forced to sit 35 minutes in train twice a day is unexpectedly helpful in completing such task.

Shuko's "The only move" still not finished (24 of 80)

No tsumego, no pro games, no playing. Not good.

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