During a recent game (15k vs 14k, and I am black), I have encountered the following sequence:
The standard joseki has W6 at either a or b, and W8 at c. I am wondering if there is any way for black to take advantage of this deviation. I thought about playing B7 at a, but if white responds at d, I don't have a good follow-up. For W8, it seems that there is an opportunity for me to invade at e, but I may be forced to live small if I invade there. Also, white can extend to the left to affect my left corner stone. So I ended up playing B9 as shown.
Is there anything that can be improved on this sequence? Thanks.
Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
It's already a bad move, so if you just play normally, it will probably turn out fine for you.
If you want to keep it simple, just hane underneath. It's good for territory, and his stones aren't doing much.
If you want to keep it simple, just hane underneath. It's good for territory, and his stones aren't doing much.
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moyoaji
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Peep at 'a' looks great.
I would like to play
more solidly at the marked stone in response to this because it leaves less aji and so that peep at 'a' looks even more harsh!
If white doesn't play
then you can connect under, which means white has 0 eyes and no points there. don't worry about the threat of a monkey jump from , you can still make life just fine on the side. Splitting white up like this is more than worth it. Now he has a weak group with no eyes on the right and a lone stone in need of a friend on the left. If he ignores his right side group coming out at 'a' puts him behind enemy lines. This move looks slow, but it is absolutely solid, white then has to run, there is no counter-attack possible. If white helps the group on the right then your move at 'b' looks even more promising - possibly play it one farther to the right to add even more pressure.
And the beauty is, you don't even have to play this right away. If white ignores your
then this move just stands out even more strongly. What can he do then? He can't even try to make a base on the left.
I would assume this is the reason this is not joseki. It is too easy to cut white apart.
Be warned, however, that this marked White move below is played by pros. Common responses are 'a', 'b', and Kirby's recommended move at 'c'. Tenuki is also possible. I think this is considered a joseki move, but I'm not totally sure. Note that the peep is much less appealing because white is actually left with okay shape now that his stone is a 1 space jump and it doesn't create a needless empty triangle.
I would like to play
more solidly at the marked stone in response to this because it leaves less aji and so that peep at 'a' looks even more harsh!If white doesn't play
then you can connect under, which means white has 0 eyes and no points there. don't worry about the threat of a monkey jump from , you can still make life just fine on the side. Splitting white up like this is more than worth it. Now he has a weak group with no eyes on the right and a lone stone in need of a friend on the left. If he ignores his right side group coming out at 'a' puts him behind enemy lines. This move looks slow, but it is absolutely solid, white then has to run, there is no counter-attack possible. If white helps the group on the right then your move at 'b' looks even more promising - possibly play it one farther to the right to add even more pressure.And the beauty is, you don't even have to play this right away. If white ignores your
then this move just stands out even more strongly. What can he do then? He can't even try to make a base on the left.I would assume this is the reason this is not joseki. It is too easy to cut white apart.
Be warned, however, that this marked White move below is played by pros. Common responses are 'a', 'b', and Kirby's recommended move at 'c'. Tenuki is also possible. I think this is considered a joseki move, but I'm not totally sure. Note that the peep is much less appealing because white is actually left with okay shape now that his stone is a 1 space jump and it doesn't create a needless empty triangle.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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Kirby is correct about the simple second-line hane ( in Post #2) --
in the joseki, if B plays Kirby's hane, B gets gote.
But in your recent game's variation, B can play Kirby's hane in sente,
so B is already taking advantage of
.
GoStudent, Kirby's reply is simple and good. The following is more messy:
in Post #2) --in the joseki, if B plays Kirby's
hane, B gets gote.But in your recent game's variation, B can play Kirby's
hane in sente,so B is already taking advantage of
.GoStudent, Kirby's reply is simple and good. The following is more messy:
extends as above, then W will not simply descend -- W will hane:
keima, not the kosumi in Variation A:
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I kind of like Ed's Variation C a bit better than my post (though I still think black is better in both).
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EdLee
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thanks, Ed. I ninja'd the post, because after a little bit of thought, I feel like making white commit to playing the star point on bottom is better, as in your variation C:
That's because white has two groups to worry about, and black is pretty solid on the right.
In contrast, if you don't make the exchange first, white doesn't have to play the bottom star point, so it seems to give white more options.
OTOH, this all assumes that white will play the bottom star point if you play this way. White maybe can try something else. I don't know what's best, but maybe he tries to fix up his shape somehow:
Actually, I don't know if
, above, even fixes it that well, because I think the OP's off-joseki move is really funky.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
That's because white has two groups to worry about, and black is pretty solid on the right.
In contrast, if you don't make the exchange first, white doesn't have to play the bottom star point, so it seems to give white more options.
OTOH, this all assumes that white will play the bottom star point if you play this way. White maybe can try something else. I don't know what's best, but maybe he tries to fix up his shape somehow:
Actually, I don't know if
, above, even fixes it that well, because I think the OP's off-joseki move is really funky.Anyway, interesting discussion.
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EdLee
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
If I misclickedKirby wrote:I don't know if
, I would consider fixing the shape with 
:
Yes, I agree. I learned a bunch of stuff thanks toKirby wrote:because I think the OP's off-joseki move is really funky.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
! 
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
EdLee wrote:If I misclickedKirby wrote:I don't know if
There you go! Plus 30 points
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skydyr
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I realize you didn't mean it seriously, but the idea of 30 points comes with the implication that you made a ponnuki through capture, so that you only invested 3 stones net, while this is just a diamond shape and required a net investment of four stones, so black has received more in exchange.Kirby wrote:EdLee wrote:If I misclicked
There you go! Plus 30 points
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I think that we are developing a consensus that the non-joseki move is self-punishing.
Like the solid connection, threatens . 
does not work because covers the cutting point.
So Black can simply continue with a normal play at
or . Now White has to worry about the weak connection.
Like the solid connection,
threatens . does not work because covers the cutting point.So Black can simply continue with a normal play at
or . Now White has to worry about the weak connection.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Yup, I agree. If I could opt to move one of the stones in the ponnuki, it would be the top one.skydyr wrote: I realize you didn't mean it seriously, but the idea of 30 points comes with the implication that you made a ponnuki through capture, so that you only invested 3 stones net, while this is just a diamond shape and required a net investment of four stones, so black has received more in exchange.
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gostudent
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thank you for all your responses! I'll consider the clamp in similar situations if the board position calls for me to start a fight.Bill Spight wrote:I think that we are developing a consensus that the non-joseki move is self-punishing.
Like the solid connection,
So Black can simply continue with a normal play at
Btw, the main reason that I started this thread is exactly the diagram above: the option to play at 4-4 against the external attachment 5-3 is no longer appealing because of the deviation... so I am wondering how can I take advantage of this deviation.
P.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
This situation: only happens when black tenukis and doesn't play in the area.gostudent wrote:
Btw, the main reason that I started this thread is exactly the diagram above: the option to play at 4-4 against the external attachment 5-3 is no longer appealing because of the deviation... so I am wondering how can I take advantage of this deviation.
Are you asking how to take advantage of the deviation *after* tenuki?
If you tenuki and let white get in the move at 1, you'll be pressed down, but you can push:
But if you want to punish the off-joseki move, why not do so instead of tenuki?
nin·jaP.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?
/ˈninjə/
verb
1. To edit one's post after others have seen it.
2. Other such trickery.
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Boidhre
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
As kirby said, it's a bit complicated. Sometimes it's an innocent "someone replied whilst I was editing and I was in a rush and didn't notice" kind of deal, other times it's someone trying to change what they said because they're losing an argument. In the middle is people altering a post because it was offensive to someone, though normally this wouldn't be called a ninja edit if the edit was marked. The key in all of these is altering the post without putting something like "Edit:" in there to indicate new content.gostudent wrote: P.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?
It varies from site to site what is acceptable. I've been on ones where anything more than spelling/grammar correction was forbidden and would be punished and I've been on ones where you could append several new paragraphs so long as you marked that you had done it. By and large though the sentiment is that you own your words, adding clarification or further information is generally acceptable, changing what you said is rarely so unless it was an obvious typo. Here people don't seem to mind so long as you're doing it for honest reasons.