Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
One of the suggestions for play was this move:
This move has benefit in that it hits a key shape point for both sides: black's shape is good, and it keeps white from taking this point, which would help white's shape a bit.
It is important, however, to consider the reason you might play this move from a global standpoint. Looking at a "normal" joseki, under what circumstances does black play this move?
For example, here's a common local joseki:
It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?
But let's consider a board position where black has some solid stones up top:
Above, the marked black stones are very low. Black has invested stones on the right, and he can't really develop there - his stones aren't doing that well together. Black could consider a pincer or something else in response to the 3-4 approach, but there is another way of playing, which is also joseki:
Note black 5 and 7, above. These stones have a drawback compared to the earlier joseki: the marked area isn't yet solidly enclosed, so if white invades later, black might not get the territory. But the benefit of these stones is that black is no longer so low on the right, as he is in the earlier joseki. His stones are balanced, and he has potential for development. To be sure, white can still reduce (eg. shoulder hit), but the high stones working together with the 3rd line stones offer more than all 3rd line stones on the right. That's at least one of the powers of this joseki.
This brings us to the discussion at hand of the weird joseki deviation by white. Supposing the board position is similar to above, where black wants to maintain some sort of future potential, it might make sense for black to want to play the diagonal move instead of the more territorial joseki:
But this doesn't quite work as well in relationship with the stones on the right as the joseki does. In the joseki, black gets stones both at the locations of
and 
, above. But above, black only gets . To be sure, white is at disadvantage locally, because he deviated from the joseki, and the bottom can't turn out great for him.
But the point, in my mind, of, above, would be to offer development on the right - and to that effect, hinders this development.
In the above position, I don't think playing low would be good either, for the same reason discussed earlier. Probably just something simple to benefit locally. For example, since black is solid above, this would seem OK for black to me: This all being said, it is probably still better to play this way: instead of playing on the 3rd line in a situation like the one above. But I'd rather not play there at all, since black doesn't get as much development potential on the right than in the joseki.
This move has benefit in that it hits a key shape point for both sides: black's shape is good, and it keeps white from taking this point, which would help white's shape a bit.
It is important, however, to consider the reason you might play this move from a global standpoint. Looking at a "normal" joseki, under what circumstances does black play this move?
For example, here's a common local joseki:
It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?
But let's consider a board position where black has some solid stones up top:
Above, the marked black stones are very low. Black has invested stones on the right, and he can't really develop there - his stones aren't doing that well together. Black could consider a pincer or something else in response to the 3-4 approach, but there is another way of playing, which is also joseki:
Note black 5 and 7, above. These stones have a drawback compared to the earlier joseki: the marked area isn't yet solidly enclosed, so if white invades later, black might not get the territory. But the benefit of these stones is that black is no longer so low on the right, as he is in the earlier joseki. His stones are balanced, and he has potential for development. To be sure, white can still reduce (eg. shoulder hit), but the high stones working together with the 3rd line stones offer more than all 3rd line stones on the right. That's at least one of the powers of this joseki.
This brings us to the discussion at hand of the weird joseki deviation by white. Supposing the board position is similar to above, where black wants to maintain some sort of future potential, it might make sense for black to want to play the diagonal move instead of the more territorial joseki:
But this doesn't quite work as well in relationship with the stones on the right as the joseki does. In the joseki, black gets stones both at the locations of
and , above. But above, black only gets . To be sure, white is at disadvantage locally, because he deviated from the joseki, and the bottom can't turn out great for him.But the point, in my mind, of
, above, would be to offer development on the right - and to that effect, hinders this development.In the above position, I don't think playing low would be good either, for the same reason discussed earlier. Probably just something simple to benefit locally. For example, since black is solid above, this would seem OK for black to me: This all being said, it is probably still better to play this way: instead of playing on the 3rd line in a situation like the one above. But I'd rather not play there at all, since black doesn't get as much development potential on the right than in the joseki.
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thinking about this a little more, *maybe* if this happened:
I would be inclined to play the marked spot - it's maybe better than 3rd line locally, but white can redeem himself (at cost of black playing elsewhere) after this:
(Supposing that
, above, is tenuki)
I would be inclined to play the marked spot - it's maybe better than 3rd line locally, but white can redeem himself (at cost of black playing elsewhere) after this:
(Supposing that
, above, is tenuki)be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Actually, it is not even. Black has the advantage. IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki (Shuko) pointed that out long ago. That is one reason that White frequently plays elsewhere forKirby wrote: For example, here's a common local joseki:
It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?
. (It is still joseki, since it is still a standard pattern of play, but White should not play it too early.)The exchange,Kirby wrote:Thinking about this a little more, *maybe* if this happened:
I would be inclined to play the marked spot - it's maybe better than 3rd line locally, but white can redeem himself (at cost of black playing elsewhere) after this:
(Supposing that
- 
, is good for White. White repairs his shape. (Black loses the peep and the clamp.) And Black still needs to protect against 
in the last diagram. Then after Black protects, White can play elsewhere.The Adkins Principle:
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Why?Bill Spight wrote:Actually, it is not even. Black has the advantage. IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki (Shuko) pointed that out long ago.Kirby wrote: For example, here's a common local joseki:
It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?
Because of this approach?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Fujisawa noted that Black retains sente, and produced the following diagram.
It is evident that Black is ahead, and still has sente. Black has a winning position. If the result of the joseki were even, then repeating it four times should leave an even result.
Altering the joseki by having White make the hanging connection instead of the solid connection does not alter the conclusion.
It is evident that Black is ahead, and still has sente. Black has a winning position. If the result of the joseki were even, then repeating it four times should leave an even result.
Altering the joseki by having White make the hanging connection instead of the solid connection does not alter the conclusion.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins
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Visualize whirled peas.
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
It's an interesting analysis. I'm not against the idea that the joseki might be favorable toward black, but this seems somewhat contrived, since direction and the global position matters. In the example given all of white's side stones are facing solid black stones.
Direction matters, because I feel white might not be as bad in a position like this:
(Maybe we can argue that
is not the best choice, but the same could perhaps be said of white continuing to follow the same pattern in Fujisawa's example)
Now white has sente. Of course, this example is contrived, too. But since the direction and selection of joseki matters, it seems difficult to prove whether a position is even in this way.
It may very well be true that black has advantage for the joseki in question - it is nice to get sente and solid profit like this...
Direction matters, because I feel white might not be as bad in a position like this:
(Maybe we can argue that
is not the best choice, but the same could perhaps be said of white continuing to follow the same pattern in Fujisawa's example)Now white has sente. Of course, this example is contrived, too. But since the direction and selection of joseki matters, it seems difficult to prove whether a position is even in this way.
It may very well be true that black has advantage for the joseki in question - it is nice to get sente and solid profit like this...
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
More than anything else, I think this particular example may show that if you play mukai komoku, you should not respond to the high approaches in this manner. Of course, I think I recall that Go Seigen has commented on this position as being advantageous to black, so take your pick.Kirby wrote:It's an interesting analysis. I'm not against the idea that the joseki might be favorable toward black, but this seems somewhat contrived, since direction and the global position matters. In the example given all of white's side stones are facing solid black stones.
Now white has sente. Of course, this example is contrived, too. But since the direction and selection of joseki matters, it seems difficult to prove whether a position is even in this way.
It may very well be true that black has advantage for the joseki in question - it is nice to get sente and solid profit like this...
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
That was, in part, Fujisawa's point.Kirby wrote:It's an interesting analysis. I'm not against the idea that the joseki might be favorable toward black, but this seems somewhat contrived, since direction and the global position matters. In the example given all of white's side stones are facing solid black stones.
Direction matters, because I feel white might not be as bad in a position like this:
(Maybe we can argue that
Go Seigen addressed this kind of position in his 21st Century Go series. Here is an SGF file with some of what he had to say.
Edit: Note that the nirensei seems to be of significance in Go Seigen's assessment. Note also how important it is for Black to keep sente in this joseki early in the game.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thanks, Bill.
What's interesting to me from the SGF is the comparison of this:
to this:
Presumably, the first diagram is good for black - I think I can see this, because the marked stones are flexible, and black has potential for moyo on the left. White has some solid territory, but black has a nice global position. In the second diagram, white again has solid territory, and black appears more oriented toward the center. It is hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that black is behind, but if I have to guess, maybe black's center development is limited with white's move on the left...
What do you think of the following type of development:
I'm trying to contrast this with Go Seigen's idea to see under what circumstances it might make sense to play out the joseki.
In this last diagram, black's right stones are somewhat center oriented, and black has the beginning of a framework on the left. Would this be good for black? In this position, and are somewhat annoying for black's development toward the center, but at least the stones seem to be more consistent than when white splits black on the left.
What's interesting to me from the SGF is the comparison of this:
to this:
Presumably, the first diagram is good for black - I think I can see this, because the marked stones are flexible, and black has potential for moyo on the left. White has some solid territory, but black has a nice global position. In the second diagram, white again has solid territory, and black appears more oriented toward the center. It is hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that black is behind, but if I have to guess, maybe black's center development is limited with white's move on the left...
What do you think of the following type of development:
I'm trying to contrast this with Go Seigen's idea to see under what circumstances it might make sense to play out the joseki.
In this last diagram, black's right stones are somewhat center oriented, and black has the beginning of a framework on the left. Would this be good for black? In this position,
and are somewhat annoying for black's development toward the center, but at least the stones seem to be more consistent than when white splits black on the left.be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
In the second diagram I don't think it's that Black is behind as that White has limited his development. Black's moyo on the right is small, and if he extends it on the top or bottom, White can reduce it on the other side.Kirby wrote:Thanks, Bill.
What's interesting to me from the SGF is the comparison of this:
to this:
Presumably, the first diagram is good for black - I think I can see this, because the marked stones are flexible, and black has potential for moyo on the left. White has some solid territory, but black has a nice global position. In the second diagram, white again has solid territory, and black appears more oriented toward the center. It is hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that black is behind, but if I have to guess, maybe black's center development is limited with white's move on the left...
I start with the tenuki as the default, and then think about whether it makes sense not to tenuki.What do you think of the following type of development:
I'm trying to contrast this with Go Seigen's idea to see under what circumstances it might make sense to play out the joseki.
Black has two frameworks. I like that.In this last diagram, black's right stones are somewhat center oriented, and black has the beginning of a framework on the left. Would this be good for black? In this position,
Edit: I just noticed the tenuki for
in the next to last diagram. That's questionable, eh?
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
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Visualize whirled peas.
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Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
In practice, I probably often do this, too. I did this in my current Malkovich game, for example. Though, more than thinking of whether the joseki is even or not, I usually tenuki because I want to play somewhere else more than continuing the joseki.Bill Spight wrote:
I start with the tenuki as the default, and then think about whether it makes sense not to tenuki.
In the second diagram I don't think it's that Black is behind as that White has limited his development. Black's moyo on the right is small, and if he extends it on the top or bottom, White can reduce it on the other side.
Okay, thanks. This seems consistent with my current understanding (although the meaning of black not being behind but having a "hard time overcoming the komi" is somewhat cryptic to meBlack has two frameworks. I like that.
).Thanks for the explanations.
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I think it's a weakness that white might use to start a fight later. Basically, I wanted your thoughts as to whether black is still behind with the position on the right if he achieves center potential. In Go Seigen's diagram, like you said, white limited black's development. I wanted to create a position where this wasn't so much the case.Bill Spight wrote: Edit: I just noticed the tenuki for
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Bill Spight
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I have changed my mind about the two frameworks. I overlooked the tenuki in the top left corner.Kirby wrote:In practice, I probably often do this, too. I did this in my current Malkovich game, for example. Though, more than thinking of whether the joseki is even or not, I usually tenuki because I want to play somewhere else more than continuing the joseki.Bill Spight wrote:
I start with the tenuki as the default, and then think about whether it makes sense not to tenuki.
In the second diagram I don't think it's that Black is behind as that White has limited his development. Black's moyo on the right is small, and if he extends it on the top or bottom, White can reduce it on the other side.Okay, thanks. This seems consistent with my current understanding (although the meaning of black not being behind but having a "hard time overcoming the komi" is somewhat cryptic to meBlack has two frameworks. I like that.
Thanks for the explanations.
As for not being behind but having a hard time overcoming komi, I would usually say that after only 18 plays White got the last move of the fuseki, and is so solid in the two right hand corners that the temperature has dropped a good bit. So if the board is about even, Black will have a hard time gaining 7 points. (I am trying to explain what Go Seigen said. My assessment is not so keen.
)The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Okay, that makes sense, I suppose. Regarding the tenuki, dailyjoseki.com lists tenuki as the most common pro response to the joseki in the top right: http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibxg ... owxmbwnwydBill Spight wrote:I have changed my mind about the two frameworks. I overlooked the tenuki in the top left corner.
As for not being behind but having a hard time overcoming komi, I would usually say that after only 18 plays White got the last move of the fuseki, and is so solid in the two right hand corners that the temperature has dropped a good bit. So if the board is about even, Black will have a hard time gaining 7 points. (I am trying to explain what Go Seigen said. My assessment is not so keen.
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