unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jubango

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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by tchan001 »

i wasnt the one posting a youtube link, i posted the baduk tv link. only once. in the kibitz. with nyans permission. even so, the whole "one ad per 24 hours" is [a main room rule]. it does not apply when its authorized in a kibitz. like posting a link to euro go tv streams when they do broadcasts, you can post the link to the stream when asked, just like they allowed the baduktv stream to be linked when asked if there was a stream to the game.

and again, i used that email as an example of him not understanding the situation and trying to pass judgement, just as you are now.

My point is that even if the link is authorized, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Although the youtube link was not posted by you, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Promotion of business on KGS is not permitted.

Regarding Euro go, it's something which has a relationship with KGS, you often see Euro go broadcast on KGS, so why would they not allow you to post something they have a relationship with. If I recall correctly, Euro go seems to advertise on KGS as well.

i really couldnt care less exactly what rooms the rule would apply to

When an admin clarifies a rule and you say you could care less about it, what does this say about you and whether you abide by server rules?

--------------

Thanks Mef for your clarification on the 24 hours per ad on KGS being server wide.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by xDragon »

tchan001 wrote:
i wasnt the one posting a youtube link, i posted the baduk tv link. only once. in the kibitz. with nyans permission. even so, the whole "one ad per 24 hours" is [a main room rule]. it does not apply when its authorized in a kibitz. like posting a link to euro go tv streams when they do broadcasts, you can post the link to the stream when asked, just like they allowed the baduktv stream to be linked when asked if there was a stream to the game.

and again, i used that email as an example of him not understanding the situation and trying to pass judgement, just as you are now.

My point is that even if the link is authorized, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Although the youtube link was not posted by you, if you keep talking about it continuously, it's promoting business. Promotion of business on KGS is not permitted.

Regarding Euro go, it's something which has a relationship with KGS, you often see Euro go broadcast on KGS, so why would they not allow you to post something they have a relationship with. If I recall correctly, Euro go seems to advertise on KGS as well.

--------------

Thanks Mef for your clarification on the 24 hours per ad on KGS being server wide.


i wasnt the one continually talking about it. there was about a dozen people who were talking about it over that span. i had never linked it, i didnt talk about it at all when it was in the kibitz. when it was moved to EGR i said a few lines out of the maybe 50 that had come out. then i pmed nyanjilla because the whole thing was getting annoying and i wanted the drama done with. we talked, she then clearly told me that posting the baduk tv link would be allowed. thats why i went back to the kibitz after it opened up and let the others know that posting the baduk tv link was allowed. then nyan even told me to post it a second time because the one i had posted was not clickable.

not to mention nyan kept bringing up an invisible "list of authorized broadcasters" and baduk tv was one of them.

this was not any different from me posting a link to a eurogotv stream.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by tchan001 »

ok, I have nothing further to say regarding this situation. Thank you for clarifying your position.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by RBerenguel »

I guess KGS admins could just bring up the KGS logs and clarify the whole situation, with written proof since xDragon is bringing written stuff. If taken completely by xDragon's explanation, it almost feels like he was framed by Nyanjilla and then banned by someone else. I doubt it, such a level of plotting seems out of hand for something that does not even seem a violation of anything.

Just discussing the advertising part, though, I don't see how xD could be banned by it. If he really just posted once, and only talked once clarifying a legal point, where was the promotion? And in case he posted a Youtube link twice, or referenced it several times (as seems implied by BigDoug's quoted response by xDragon,) seriously? KGS admins assume someone in the world able enough to get KGS doesn't know what YouTube is and needs more advertising? Also, talking about something that someone else has referenced is also advertising? If advertising something was so easy I'd have an easier life at work, as well as a lot of other people working online.

Also, talking about other servers is a problem now? Or will be in the near future? I've already seen this in IGS, back when I was getting into go. It was not fun to see, actually a shame.

I'm terribly bothered by this line, that I can only assume it's true (since when someone quotes someone else, you have to be wary of omissions):

for example, you argued with Nyan for quite a long time. Why did you feel the need to do that? Why not simply accept her judgement in the first place?


I personally have a hard time accepting wrong judgements just because they come from someone with power. I have the same problem with people without power, too, but when it's people who should be more knowledgeable spreading wrongness, it boils me.

I've had only one encounter with a KGS admin (IIRC it was BD, by the way,) I think I have already written it down before. I was in the Spanish Room (IIRC) and when I logged in there was some turmoil because someone had been banned for some obscure reason. I asked what had happened and he (IIRC, again, but it was an admin in any case) told me not to ask. I replied something along the lines of "I just got in here and was wondering what's wrong, it's just a question" and the next comment was the threat of being banned, just for asking. So, even though I know policing online stuff is hard, I feel sometimes they overstep. So I just learnt that if an admin says something in KGS I just have to ignore who is the threatened if it's not me or comply if it is me. It's not a good feeling, but as long as I'm just in the private NGA room most of the time I can't get into any problem, ever.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by Ellyster »

Without knowing anything about the KGS rules, the antecedents, or the discussion... since I don't know both sides of the story I will not enter in if the ban was justified or not. But about the manners, when a user writes to the official support e-mail, and the first answer that gets is:

Dear KGS-troll,

We didn't forget what you brought to us, now simply you had it back.


I would say that the Support Team has a huge problem to deal with, because really really looks like it can only be a very personal and vindictive ban :-| .

In any of the sites that I have been an admin or moderator, something like that wasn't tolerated, specially in a place in which any user can become a customer (KGS+).


And the later response for a superior instance, in my opinion is close to normal, maybe wasn't good enough in this case. At least it deserves an apologize for the "subordinate" tone of the reply, and a promise of taking a closer look to the incident. At least for confirming or not that one admin asked him to put that link, and afterwards thanks him, if that's the case, the different criteria between admins should not cause prejudice in a user.


After that, if the user is really persistent... you can ether consult with other admins if the user's claims are strongly reasoned, or if it's a troll, reply only once more politely a ignore. But,

<delete button>
...
<delete button>


This dynamic, looks a little bit childish for an admin (and is feeding the possible trolls a lot).


I know how exasperating (and ungrateful) the admin/moderator works is, and that some times you just lost the temper, but specially when there is the posiblity of loosing potential clients it should be handle more carefully ;-) .
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by RobertT »

Don't worry xDragon, getting banned for admins having different points of view of the same TOS is a rite of passage on KGS. The best way I've found is getting to know each of the admins and learning what their views and interpretations of the TOS. Personally I think grey area issues like this could be resolved quickly if the person in question says an admin told them their action is ok, the other admins drop the issue and resolve it among themselves. Conflicting information from admins should be an admin issue, not a user issue. Admins should act more as a collective body. The current way individual admins overrule others and what was ok the other day isn't ok today because different admins happen to be logged in is the major reason behind most admin complaints I see. The rest of the complains are disagreements with how fair the KGS TOS itself is but that is a different issue.

That being said, I don't really see the problem with posting a link to a Korean language video stream of the game in the chat of an English professional commentary on a primarily English Go server. I would imagine the people asking for the link just wanted to see the players playing on the actual board and not for the Korean commentary. This would effectively be the same as posting the link to EuroGoTv in chat. Are KGS admins really afraid that the link would cause everyone to leave to watch a video very few of the people linked would even understand instead of continue listening to the professional English commentary they are currently listening to?

Saying that it was advertising is a fine line. Where do you draw that line? Is it at linking other Go servers since they provide the same service and are direct competitors? Is it websites that provide competing information? If that is the case I'm fairly sure joseki websites, Go book stores and even sensei's library provide much of the same information as KGS+ lectures. Is linking the AGA website now considered advertising since they can cause players to play more in person instead of on KGS? They hold tournaments that could have directly competing times with KGS tournaments. AGA and website that sell Go books are businesses. How direct of a competitor does it have to be to be considered advertising?
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by DrStraw »

How can someone who is not a professional show unprofessional behavior? Inappropriate perhaps, but not unprofessional. And I am not saying it is even inappropriate as I don't know all the facts.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by Uberdude »

Some admins seem to forget that, due to their greater power and responsibility, they should have a higher standard of behaviour than the regular users they police. xDragon has quite probably deserved some of his past bans, but that shouldn't prejudice new cases and sweety's response was uncivil and inappropriate. RBerenguel, I doubt there was deliberate plotting on Nyanilla's or the booting admins part, based on the info so far probably just the booting admin thought she has said 'no more links' rather than 'correct links', or thought that themselves, plus a predisposition against xDragon means a trigger happy boot.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by Nyanjilla »

Some clarification: I've been told that USGO1 himself asked people not to post the YouTube link, early in the relay, but of course that would have been lost rapidly in the chatter. I don't know whether that was why he moderated the chat.

I can't read any text on the YouTube link (apart from the "marked as spam" comments), so can't check how official it is, especially since I hadn't seen any authorization for that link. Yes, it is a relay of BadukTV's own stream, but I still can't see that from that link. BadukTV's stream is the one to promote within the kibitz. Note that at least one of the admins has told me that the YouTube link is blocked in his country for copyright reasons, so it's not a useful link anyway.

We are very concerned about following the wishes of sponsors.

Another point.... This has happened before, I believe: once you start PMing individual admins who might not be directly involved, things start getting very confused. At least one of them mentioned specifically in our room that you had said something to him, and another hinted at it, but not all of the admins type fast enough to keep the rest of us informed of every single post they receive, or read fast enough to keep up with that rush of posts, and it can happen that other, previously uninvolved, admins start acting on the information they are given without knowing the full story.

It's best not to add more confusion to a situation, especially given your history on KGS. Unfortunately, it will take a while for that history to die down, although there have been many times recently that we have told each other how helpful you have been in the Main rooms.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by RBerenguel »

Uberdude wrote:[...] RBerenguel, I doubt there was deliberate plotting on Nyanilla's [...]


Yes, I am very sure this wasn't the case, just that it may have been thought as so. There would be no reason to do something as complicated when you can directly ban him, but I just pointed it out because it strikes as weird.

Also, I forgot to write down what DrStraw put: there is no unprofessional behaviour when being and admin is not your profession!
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by daal »

I was in the room at the time, and after reading xDragon's first post, I was in complete agreement with him, but by now that I've read through the whole thread, and despite disagreeing with most of what tchan says and being extremely put off by the nature of the admin's responses, I'm starting to see things from their point of view.

First of all, at the time, I felt grateful to Pempu and xDragon for pointing out where the video could be viewed. I wanted to look at the video as well as watch the game on KGS, and passing along this information is more a friendly thing to do, and less a matter of promoting the competition. They were doing the KGS viewers a service. Thank you. Was the link allowed? I can't say, but after the issue of its legality was raised, xDragon found a link that was definitely legal and in agreement with the admin who was involved in the issue.

On the surface, it would seem that there is little to justify a ban, but thanks to xdragon's meticulously documented self defense, we get to see that what got him banned was his history of trying people's patience.

There is much to criticize in the actions of the KGS admins, and I hope that hearing it from a neutral source will give them pause. Their responses were rude (dear troll), incomprehensible (we didn't forget what you had brought us...) obnoxious (<delete>), unnecessary (banning after the situation had been resolved) evasive (not stating a reason for the ban) circumventive (pretending not to understand xDragon's complaint) irrelevant (saying that what xDragon did was unnecessary, which is not a reason for a ban) disingenuous (justifying the lack of explanation with the assertion that xDragon would not accept any explanation) and infuriating (why didn't you accept her judgement in the first place?)

That's a lot to criticize, so I asked myself: Where did all that come from? I started by re-reading
xDragon's first post. He writes:
there were about a dozen people who quickly spoke up saying that it was legal because the stream was coming from baduk tv itself which was a legal broadcaster.
Ok, this is an exaggeration. Maybe there were two or three others who defended the link. Then he writes:

nyan would continually say "youtube is not an authorized broadcaster" which makes zero sense because youtube is not a broadcaster but a broadcasting platform.
Hm. This sounds nitpicky and condescending.

Then:
i also talked to javaness about this, but he just kind of brushed me off when he found out i had a legit case.
This reminds me of a kid who asks his mom after his dad said no.

A bit later he writes:
it didnt make much sense to ban one but not the other but ok, ill take the small victory.
A small victory? Is that what this is about? About winning an argument? I'm starting to think so.

Then there's this exchange:

For the upcoming events, I suggest that you simply enjoy them and comment upon them. It's not necessary to be an ad hoc marketing agent on behalf of YouTube or other broadcasters. They have enough people doing that already.

Regards,
Doug"

so now i feel like doug is asking others to view other servers instead of kgs? thats strange.
Who's muddying the issue now?
Then:
but it was the last two sentences that struck me as most strange. how is telling nyanjilla that posting a link to a youtube link wasnt illegal being an advertiser for youtube?
He's right, it's not, but again, this sounds like nitpicking because his actions support the advertisement.

A bit later:
then i had to point out that i did not argue with nyan, i was trying to explain to her that it was incorrect (which is why i could not accept it
He had to point out? He could not accept it? Exactly.

Then xDragon tries to find out what got him banned. I'd like to know too, but I suspect for a different reason. I think he wants to know so that he can say that it was wrong. He writes:

ok, so why was my behavior incorrect here? i did nothing wrong besides prove an admin wrong, which apparently is a bannable offense.
There is a difference in intent between setting the record straight and proving someone wrong. One sets the record straight to get correct information out to the public, one proves someone wrong to undermine their authority.

And all this was just in one post.

Appearances can deceive. The justification for the ban is that no one can be expected to have the time or patience to repeatedly submit to such tedious onslaughts in their free time. The admin's responses were ugly, but they don't appear to have come out of the blue. In my opinion, xDragon brewed the very storm that got tossed him out by displaying a know-it-all, nitpicking attitude, by publicly confronting an admin, by dragging in other admins, and by giving credence to their previously formed opinions of him. While the responses of the admins was sub-optimal, I find it hard to blame them.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by cdybeijing »

A lot of people seem to have a lot of time on their hands.
:roll:
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by Toge »

tchan001 wrote:If you were hired by Coca-cola to monitor a forum designed to get people to enjoy Coke more, how would you react to someone posting a thread which kept telling people that a certain Pepsi sponsored event link is really worth clicking?


- I would feel very pressured and morally hollow if I had occupation that consisted of restricting the freedom of speech of people for the sake of company's speculated profits.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by Pippen »

S.h.i.t like that does not happen to me at Tygem anymore :P.
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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub

Post by daal »

Marcel Grünauer wrote:Thanks for reminding me why I'm avoiding KGS. If you're not with the admins, you're against them.

On a related note: School ditches rules and loses bullies describes how an Auckland school found how cotton-wooling children actually had negative effects.


OTOH, If you're not against them, they probably aren't much of a problem. Sure, power corrupts and admins can be tyrannical, but how much power do they have? The worst they can do is ban you for a day or two. :roll: I must say though, that the article you linked to totally resonated with me. It reminded me of how they removed the trash cans from Rhode Island's public beaches, and trash-scattered beaches became pretty much a thing of the past. People generally will take care of things themselves when the responsibility lies with them.

As it is now, responsibility for KGS lies in one person's hand, and he's decided to delegate it. It would certainly take a good deal of courage and a leap of faith to abandon the time-honored tradition of nannying as did the Auckland school and the Rhode Island Public Works, but were KGS to do it, there is no guarantee that it would be a better place - only that it would be a different one.
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