Or both play with hidden clocks. In any case, I prefer the current situation. After all, it's exactly the same as in chess, and chess has a longer tradition of doing funny stuff (Fischer chess, monster chess, etc) and I've never seen clock hiding in there.

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Not really, all you could work out was whether they were in overtime, and not being able to see the clock you couldn't know how many overtime periods they had remaining. If you're using Fischer (some tournaments do) then you don't even get this much information and again the same applies to Canadian.

We agree for once! It's also snowing in Florida, so it must be the end times.

Among other reasons, I am a parent, and it's a rare day when I can devote myself to playing Go without the thought that once this game is over, I will have something else that needs done. So I want to see how much time remains for both me and my opponent.

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Correct, what I meant but failed to put in writing was normal time.

I indeed didn't think of Fischer or Canadian (I don't think I have ever played a game using them)

Anyhow, i agree with others who say that information about time remaining is part of the information of the game, and one shouldn't be able to hide it from one's opponent. If one chooses to not use the information himself, it's another matter.

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My point is that I would place this option very low on a prioritized list of what options I would like to see in the software. Somewhere around 1000th place.

Every option is just one extra option. But there must be 1000s of other options like this one. If we add them all there will be 1000s of options. Even if the default is ok for me, when I look at the options list for something I will have to read that one, and all the others to find the one I want.

A couple things to note perhaps.

a) It may make sense to have an option "do not look at opponents time" as this is within your power to choose to do.

b) It may not make sense to have an option "do not allow my opponent to look at my time" because that is purely a matter of the timing technology used and there are no rules in place specifying the presence/absence of devices that would allow one to keep track of the opponents time (remember, even if the official game clock did not show you the opponents time another "clock" could)

I think I need to clarify what I mean by an option to hide the opponent's clock. What I mean is an option at the challenge or game creation stage where you specify that neither player will see the opponent's clock. It applies to both players who agree to use this feature before the game starts.

If that option was available, I would try it out for sure. Unlike some of you, I can't predict if I will like it or not. Although I don't think it will make much difference for me, as I don't usually look at my opponent's clock. I hardly ever look at my own clock, so I guess my time management must be ok. Some of you made an argument that time is part of the game that should not be hidden. It can certainly be used to inform one's strategy. But note that this aspect of the game is missing from casual games played at a club, besides setting some vague limit on how long a game can last. I myself would welcome an option on the servers that reduces the impact of the clock, besides setting some average pace.

It is interesting that most of the people took this issue personally rather than looking at it objectively.

I don't think anyone took it personally. I thought you were interested in finding out if people thought it was a good idea and some people disagreed with it. You always have the right to ignore your opponent's clock, so it does seem a bit pointless to me.

if you can't see their clock, then how do you know when they've lost on time?

Well, people tell me why they wouldn't want to use that option. Not why they object to having that option on the server in the first place (except for yoyoma, but he is objecting to extra options in general). My idea was to have that option, not to make everyone use it. I understand you wouldn't care much for it if you never wanted to use it. But is that enough reason to oppose that option altogether? Especially if some other people wanted to use it. I get the vibe that this option should be dismissed outright, but it seems pretty harmless to me.

the server will tell you

I will say that is a really really bad idea. Let me explain:

First, Go still remains to be a perfect information game including time, meaning that even if you hide the clock of your oponent, you can actually calculate your oponent time (for pratical purposes is mor confortable just to play with a phisical clock by your side). So you actually win nothing with this change.

Second, it promotes distrust and conflicts, since you cannot avoid you opponent from calculating or measuring your remaining time, what this rule psycologicaly implies that it should not be done, you will always thing that he is cheating on you.

Third, it creates an non-Go skill adventage, just by be able to economically afford a Go clock or not.

Forth, it creates an unecesary distraction... makes timing important when it should not be. Go should be the only thing that matters.

Fifth, it cannot be universally applied... in Absolute timing, the oponent time is too important.


Sixt, if your only concern is that you don't like when your oponent plays stupid moves to try to win by time (I know that is really anoying) you have much beter solutions:

a) Get strong enought that it doesn't matter anymore (at some rank point people stop doing it, either gamemanship of being serious players or just beacause they know that usually you only lost points that way).
b) Don't obsess with lossing that way (usually it only shows the lack of skill and desesperation of your opponent).
c) Play with no time limit.

An probably the easiest one:
d) Play with Japanese byo-yomi of 60 seconds (time enought to solve most of the stupid moves, so the opponent don't even try them).

I don't trot it out in every such discussion, but I take it as a given that options are almost always a cost to the user. There are ways to make options more or less painful to deal with, but they're always a cost.

This sort of option is one of the worst kinds : timing systems on KGS are already too fragmented. Viewing the open games list is like doing a constraint satisfaction problem: which of these slew of games has time settings I can live with? One of the big advantages of automatch is that I just choose Blitz/Fast/Medium.

Now you're proposing adding yet another option to that. At some point, the time settings alone will stop being viewable, at least if you're on a tablet.

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That's kind of a weird point to make... Sure, they may be a cost, but they also have a value/benefit. The question is whether or not that value/benefit outweighs the cost. And eliminating options from the software doesn't actually remove the cost or the option for the user... it just shifts the question from whether or not to use the option in that software to whether or not to use the software at all.



I sort of agree with what you're saying here, but at the same time, you're just pointing out a flaw in how information is presented on one particular Go server (neither the original post nor the topic mention KGS, btw). It would be a really sad world if discussions of feature ideas for Go servers were limited to what would work in KGS's existing UI.

The real problem with the idea of hiding your clock from your opponent (imo, and has already been touched on) is that it's about concealing information in a perfect information game, which can then give an edge to those who manually track that information over those who don't (as Ellyster wrote in great detail ).

The hacked KGS client does help in this regard as it displays the time setting of each game in the list rather than requiring a mouse over for a pop-up.

I also don't see what the problem with trying to take advantage of people that are dilly-dallying with the time. It is actually pretty difficult to create time consuming tesuji on-the-fly, I have tried on a number of occasions, and usually players have enough cheap endgame moves that they can get out of it anyway, maybe with a few less ko-threats, or few less than optimal points.

If it's a big enough deal for them, that's true. Otherwise, they just use the software and never think about it.

I know some options are necessary. But I think a lot of people think of this as "why NOT have some hypothetical option?" But I think for a large class of software, the better attitude is "justify this option, because it has a cost."

If options are orthogonal, don't create unpredictable behavior, and are invisible to the user in ordinary use, then they're close to free. In practice, that's very hard to do, and it certainly doesn't apply in this case--it's an option that affects both you and your opponent.

Maybe KGS is suboptimal here, but the real issue is that people have a ton of preferences concerning time control. Too many, in fact. Any server is going to have to make choices or swamp us with information.

And even if the only options were "Fast/Medium/Blitz", I'd count being able to show or hide your clock as noise. Even if there's few enough other options to make things simple overall, that's an extraneous option.

P.S. I do agree that it's weird to try and add imperfect information to Go.

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Fischer is pretty straightforward:

Initial time + (moves they played x increment) - (time elapsed - time I've used))

Time I've used = Initial time + moves I've played x increment - time remaining.

Any system where you can lose extra time (byo-yomi, Canadian, Bronstein, etc) would be impossible though

Pros often use such tactics. Moreover, as Mef points out, it isn't that difficult to figure out how much main time your opponent has left.

If overtime countdown is involved, then it might be less accurate, but it would not be very difficult to estimate when your opponent is in byo-yomi. Why not just play the game? If you can't handle complications invented by your opponent, then just view them as interesting mini challenges that spice up your games.

Why not just have an option to hide the clocks?

You say pros use such tactics. Is that your main argument against an option to hide the clocks? In any case, I wasn't talking about tournaments.

It's not easy to keep track of the time left for your opponent if you don't see his clock. You need a tool for that, and you'll be wasting your own time using it. It won't be accurate, but even if it were, it would barely make any difference. No one but crackpots would use it for casual games. So, I don't buy this argument at all.

I understand some people believe time is an important part of the game and should not be hidden. Obviously, the option to hide the clocks is for the other people, those who believe time should not get in the way of friendly casual games. So, this argument doesn't hold water either.