Posts: 1596 Liked others: 891 Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
We may both be too modest in our claimed rankings - I'm currently 3k on KGS and Dusk Eagle is sitting on the 1k/2k borderline. I am taking Black with no komi.
As with my previous game here, my comments are meant primarily to illustrate my thinking and not to be didactic. If anyone has questions, please ask, and I'll be happy to elaborate; likewise, I hope others will comment on my moves and thinking.
As I've said before, I'm not very comfortable with star-point stones, but that's a good reason to try to get better at using them. Besides, I've just started learning some joseki in a systematic way (I know, this will decrease my strength by 2 stones), and most of those so far are star-point ones, so I want to start using them in actual games.
Alright, it's a new game. I often start with a 4-4 here, but I was considering going with a 3-3 here as I have had some success with it in my last couple of games. The thing I don't like about it is that it feels too hard to develop from. I'm not necessarily going for a moyo game, but I like to keep my options open and be flexible. The 4-4 feels like a very fast and flexible opening, while the 3-3 feels too slow and hard to develop.
Previously, I have said that I don't like quadruple 4-4 openings. However, my opinion on them has since changed. I no longer am bothered by such openings, though I don't quite feel like playing one in this particular game for some reason.
What I want to avoid most is yet another Malkovich ikken-tobi game. Seriously guys.
Basics section:
The 4-4 is not great at developing territory. In fact, it secures absolutely no territory on the first move. Black can invade easily and live.
However, as you can see, this gives white great shape on the outside. So even if black does not invade the corner right away, white should be aiming to develop the outside, in preparation for if black does invade.
White gets a lot of points no matter what black does, but white a stone on 'a' would not seem to be doing as much in this situation (notice a stone at 'a' would look great with a 4-4 white stone). So instead, a more local development move is often required (if development is desired), and this is what I personally dislike about the 3-3.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Thoughts: I admit I don't really know what I'm doing against a Low Chinese opening, should he choose to play it. Popular fuseki has been a weak point of my studying thus far. So, I'm going to break up his corner first. If he takes the open corner, it's the same as if I played a 5-3 and he approached it on move 5. If he responds, I'll try to grab sente to grab the final corner. I may even be able to just ignore his response.
The other move I considered is the 3-4 point in the top right, and if he played the Low Chinese, follow up with:
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Uh oh, move 4 and my opponent already got one Like.
Well, as mentioned previously, I don't really know any joseki (and the 3-4 joseki that I do know are mainly against the high approach). The kosumi doesn't seem to work that well with either nearby corner, so that's not promising. I'm a little nervous about pincering, given that the sequences can get complicated and my opponent is not only stronger but also presumably more knowledgeable about joseki.
I actually don't know if the move I chose is particularly common, but it doesn't seem like it could be that bad, plus it feels like it gives me a nice followup in approaching the left corner once White makes a base on the right. Of course, he'll have a nice similar followup, but that's okay, I have more of the corner and if we play fairly symmetrically I have the advantage of the first move in hand.
'a' and 'b' I figured would then be miai. However, there's something I don't like about this joseki for white. It feels like he gets life in sente and not all that much more out of it. Even if I were to get 'a' and another move on his corner, it still feels very hard to attack black in any significant way.
I also thought about tenukiing, but then I ran into this problem:
I really really detest being more-or-less sealed in and giving black such great influence over the whole center of the board. So, I would have to play as a running move, but I do not know any joseki for it. I would probably play it at , but then black will be able to profit a lot from my running and my games historically do not turn out very well when I do that early.
So, I got to thinking about other options:
I don't like the sequence that follows from the three-space extension:
I like this result more than the 3-3 attachment. It feels like I am being more active in my development, and black still has to watch out for a white move around 'a'. If he extends all the way to 'b' for then it will still be easy to invade the bottom side, and I will be satisfied.
The sequence up to can be expected, and to demonstrate the aji within the position. Not that through should be played right away. As Catalin Tanaru 5p says, aji is like fine wine. It should be savored, not chugged down. Also, note that if two diagrams above is played any farther away, the aji demonstrated above comes into play.
What if he doesn't kick me, but tries to undercut me with below? Then I will play to to strengthen myself, and aim to attack his lone stone.
I do not think this is a good result for him here, with his damaged stone and all. Note that it is crazy play to try and fight a ko with 8 here - there are no ko threats.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
As I said before, I was already out of my joseki knowledge one move ago, so I'm totally going on principles here.
The first question is whether I can tenuki. I believe I can; if he dives into the corner I have plenty of room to expand to the left, and if he approaches on the left I think I can take the whole corner with the diagonal attachment at R4.
We have a pretty symmetrical position here, in which I have a bit bigger share of the corner while he has more potential for side development (Q8 is two points closer to my hoshi stone than O4 is to his) but has a little more weakness left behind by stretching farther.
I really want to approach his lower left stone like I mentioned earlier, but it does seem like I should take the last empty corner first if I tenuki. My concern is something like this:
after which White's right side looks pretty optimal. I do get sente again, though, and maybe I can make his lower left stone feel lonely.
As far as avoiding that kind of situation goes, it feels like it is far too early to approach his group on the right (playing on the side before the corners are occupied), so maybe I should try to avoid feeling jealous and be happy with what I have taken in exchange.
How about a move beside a 4-4? If I play the 3-4 at C16, he'll probably approach again and now my upper right stone is really starting to feel lonely. If I play the 3-4 at D17, he has a perfect approach from below. How about a 5-4? This feels pretty nice:
Thougts:The 5-4 is interesting. He obviously wants me to play the inner 3-4 point so that he can build influence toward is 4-4 stone. Not going to happen (yet). I think he should have extended below in one way or another in order to establish a base for his group. Now, he's taken a big point in gote, but I am getting to debase his group + make some points, maybe even in sente. Note also that the kick does not settle his group in the corner very well, as there is this sequence that I showed earlier:
Stones on the fourth line are meant for growing. They should often be complemented with another stone to complete the expansion and make the group feel healthy. If this extension is neglected, the move I played is the common shape for exploiting that weakness (note how this is also the common shape for approaching a famous double-high move: the 4-4). Right now, he could kick both of my stones to try and stablize, but look at how much I gain in both stability and strength on the outside:
He also has a weak point at 'a' still. However, I seem to recall a pro game where a player played something like this, but I can't remember what the outside was like at the time (I was more skimming through the game than studying it deeply).
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
OK, I claimed that I could just make a diagonal attachment now. What I really want to do is settle myself a little and then pincer. After all, White's approach is really close and not supported much.
makes super shape but lets White into the corner. However, it does make me really solid, and threatens both to attack White's M3 stone and to invade (at some point) his right-hand formation.
Only move. I have nothing to say that I haven't already said.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
As discussed earlier. I looked again but I didn't find anything I liked better. This should make me rock solid and also force him to do something about M3, while leaving him with an open skirt. I looked at a few possible future variations and I may have to expend some effort not to get sealed in.
I'm starting to think I shouldn't have tenukied earlier (when I played in the upper left corner), but still, I have a nice sized corner, no weak groups (I think), and can hopefully come out of this with sente again.
Thoughts: I'm actually kind of glad he didn't play as below. Although kicking is generally not good, it is hard to find major weaknesses in his shape, and he'd get to take the (IMO) biggest point on the board.
Anyway, I'm thinking of my move as somewhat of a probe. If he pincers, which I think is both unlikely and also not very good, I will have many good options
His marked stone will be devalued somewhat, and he will also want to extend to the circled point, as this is an important point for both sides, but then he will feel overconcentrated.
In this case, I believe the 3-3 point under his 5-4 stone is the correct way for me to try to devalue the top side. There's just one problem: I don't know a single joseki from that position. I've thought up a few variations based on various responses he may consider, and if I end up playing this way I'll post them.
I could also play this fun move, and a fight would start:
I haven't decided which of these two options I want yet. It took me a long time just to decide on my current move.
There's also the low extension for him to consider, but IMO it doesn't seem to jive as well with his 5-4 stone.
Basics: It is hard to define a probe, but I'll try my best. A probe forces your opponent to commit to playing a certain way, and in doing so you can often leave behind aji in his shape, get several kikashi moves, or through your next sequence of plays work to make his choice seem suboptimal if he were to rechoose after you had played your sequence.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Posts: 589 Liked others: 0 Was liked: 114
Rank: 2 dan
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Thoughts: I'm actually kind of glad he didn't play as below. Although kicking is generally not good, it is hard to find major weaknesses in his shape, and he'd get to take the (IMO) biggest point on the board.
'it is hard to find major weaknesses in his shape'? It really shouldn't be!
This 4 is massive, perhaps even straight away because it seals black in handily and gives him terrible shape in the corner. Though I'm not sure, because it's pretty slow and white is already a tad overconcentrated on the right.
Hrm. I kind of feel like I'm being played here, dancing to his tune. I have to admit that treating M3 as a forcing move rather than defending it seems pretty nice for White. If I try to pincer it, he'll probably just counter-pincer it and build up a nice position on the left while I spend a bunch of moves to capture one measly stone. Meanwhile, he's made a perfect approach on the right and I don't really have room to counter-pincer him.
First of all, I don't think I want to attach. He just gets a perfect position that works well with his right side without being overconcentrated, and keeps sente:
And I don't think I should tenuki; while I can certainly survive a double pincer, I feel like that would be too much to bear. And as I said, I think White can afford to treat M3 lightly, so I don't really have any moves that demand a response.
So I guess that leaves an extension. It leaves him with a really nice balanced move to connect everything, but 1) it's not territory yet, and 2) once again, I should have sente coming out of the exchange (although I keep saying this and I keep being wrong). I'm playing the keima instead of the one-space jump because everything else is high (and my next move in the upper left hand corner will be high too), although the downside is that it's harder to use as a base to fight with White's right-side territory.
I'm not really happy with the game so far, but we've just started.
He went low. While I can't say that is wrong, it is definitely not what I would have done. Low is saying "I do not intend to expand along the top side." I'm kind of curious as to why he played the 5-4 if that is the case. Anyway, I'll take some good territory from this, and he'll get influence toward the top. I'm not too worried though, because even if he does get a lot of influence, I will not be hard-pressed to invade the top, as I will have easy reduction moves such as the shoulder-hit if need be.
Couple that with his low extension for safety along the top, and I'm starting to think he just might be afraid. I will have to start to push more and aim for aggression in order to capitalize on the psychological advantage I think I may have.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Posts: 1758 Liked others: 378 Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
amnal wrote:
Though I'm not sure, because it's pretty slow and white is already a tad overconcentrated on the right.
This. I obviously saw move 4 that you mentioned, but it also does not appear to be sente against the corner. Meanwhile, black gets a very quick development. That was my fear anyway, perhaps a stronger player can tell me I'm wrong.
There's also a weakness here I believe, but to play it too early feels more like aji-keshi than anything else, and he will still be able to live in one whole piece. Playing to seal in is obviously better, but like I said, I'm not sure if I'd be able to handle black's rapid development.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
OK, this I cannot tolerate. White is treating this like a handicap game in the way he keeps moving on without shoring up his position. He has played big before urgent, and it is my duty to try to punish him for it.
I played exactly between his two stones so he wouldn't have a good approach from either side, and to make it hard for him to treat his R14 stone lightly the way he could M3, because I'd get so much territory from engulfing it. His lower right group looks pretty strong now, but it could end up being a bit sickly, especially if he spends a lot of time strengthening R14. If I end up being able to attack with O6 or something, then it becomes more of a threat to surround M3 on a large scale.
There are lots of possibilities now, but the only one I looked at in any detail was
(of course my new stone is within a sector line of his, too )
If we get in a running fight I should be able to keep ahead, especially since my upper and lower right corners don't need reinforcing for a while (often in a running fight like this Black needs to take time out to play a move like O17, which I already have).
I accidentally stumbled across this page earlier today, which has the exact shape which occured in the bottom right. Interesting. If that page is to be believed, the move I criticized earlier was proper after all.
I'll make myself somewhat of a base before continuing. If black plays like this to , I'll have to decide between 'a' and 'b'. 'a' splits his pincer stone, while 'b' takes more of the corner and the top.
If I had to choose right now, I would choose option 'a'. But I'll think about it more and decide when the time comes.
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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dfan
was the move I feared the most from him when I played 
. At the time, I was looking at this joseki:
as a running move, but I do not know any joseki for it. I would probably play it at 
, but then black will be able to profit a lot from my running and my games historically do not turn out very well when I do that early.
then it will still be easy to invade the bottom side, and I will be satisfied.
,
can be expected, and 
to 
demonstrate the aji within the position. Not that 
below? Then I will play 
to 
. But hey, the point of this game is to learn. I'll give it a shot.
makes super shape but lets White into the corner. However, it does make me really solid, and threatens both to attack White's M3 stone and to invade (at some point) his right-hand formation.
:, I believe this happens.