Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teachers

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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

Shaddy wrote:@tekesta:

At high levels, you must always read and analyze. Not doing this is like walking through a minefield blind.
Sorry for replying very late to this post. I was out of town until a couple of Mondays ago.

It is true what you stated. Seasoned players have so much experience with reading and analysis that they they can do it rather quickly, almost as if by instinct. Even so, every now and then there arises a board position that challenges even a top pro's analysis. Which is why it is usually good practice to analyze a position for a few minutes before playing a stone, even at the highest levels of play.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

RobertJasiek wrote:tekesta, see also Shaddy's reply.

Theory per se is not only a distillation of the most central bits of knowledge accumulated over the centuries, because also new theory is added to the knowledge pool.

Which are the "few prior observations" that let you "understand the[?] theory at all"?
I apologize for the late reply.

Our knowledge and understanding of Go is changing all the time, but there are some things about the game that have remained the same throughout the centuries. I believe its playing philosophy is well summarized in Wang Jixin's Ten Golden Rules.

I play the game and study it, but by no means am I an expert. Also, I noticed that "theory" only points us in the right direction. Experience, I believe, is the decisive factor in the kind of understanding that a student develops regarding Go. Not absolute understanding, mind you, but a personal one.

I have only been able to make sense of Go theory after playing (and losing) and few games and practicing some. After doing so enough times, I am beginning to understand the reasons behind its concepts. It's like when, for example, my professor tells me that plants with small, leathery leaves tend to grow in hot, dry places and plants with large, tender leaves tend to grow in cool, moist places. At first, if I have not spent time looking at plants, I would not know what he was talking about. I might even say that he speaks nonsense! After a few initial observations of plants in their natural habitat, a seed of understanding is planted. After some more observation and thinking I learn what my professor had known all along; small, leathery leaves help to reduce evaporation loss of water in hot, dry climates, while large, tender leaves are best for reduced sunlight conditions that occur in cool, moist climates. (Tender leaves help promote evapotranspiration in conditions that would normally impede it.)

I know next to nothing about jōseki (so you may have to correct me on the following :oops:) but I've observed the taisha jōseki, which has been obsolete since at least the early 20th century, and deduced some things. After the first 3 moves, White and Black try to separate each other, then reinforce and extend. The result is a group large enough to have influence over a very large part of the board. There are hundreds of variations, but, in the latter half of the 19th century, as Japanese Go players began to seek more developmental flexibility in the opening, the taisha was perceived to decide developmental possibilities too early in the game. Thus, the taisha slowly became obsolete and simpler jōseki, such as attach and extend, became more popular. By the time Go Seigen arrived on the Japanese pro scene, the taisha was largely obsolete. Of course not all large-scale jōseki became obsolete; the avalanche jōseki continues to be played even today, apparently because it creates a group with good outward influence, while avoiding the extensive ramification characteristic of the taisha. Also, 5-3 is not a common opening move in recent times, whereas 5-4 with a 3-4 shimari is common and avalanche jōsekis arise from it.

Through my experiences, I have come to realize that Go is a "way" - in the Oriental sense of the word. So it really does not make any sense for me to say I know this and that. I am even beginning to wonder if measuring progress is not as important as I thought, as I cannot hope to "master" the game. Of course measuring the progress of Go students can provide useful information about how people learn the game, but I believe measured progress towards a specific level of expertise should not define a Go player. Rather, the definitive factor should be how much time daily one spends on Go.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by often »

this might be construed as flamebait/troll language, but it really isn't

i have not found any "western" teacher that i would want to get taught by or is of a strength that i would benefit from getting taught by.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

often wrote:this might be construed as flamebait/troll language, but it really isn't

i have not found any "western" teacher that i would want to get taught by or is of a strength that i would benefit from getting taught by.
Ding, ding, ding! You read my mind :lol:

Westerners are averse to struggle in the learning process, as it is often perceived to be a sign of intellectual weakness, not to mention a clear sign of inefficiency. So, they seek simple, elegant solutions to everything. Easterners, on the other hand, believe that struggle is an important part of the learning process and also essential for the development of moral character. So, they emphasize constant repetition and refinement.

I submit for your consideration this article, which may shed light on how East Asians and Westerners learn Go - or anything else. It's from November 2012, but its contents are most revelant to the discussion.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/11/12/164793058/struggle-for-smarts-how-eastern-and-western-cultures-tackle-learning
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by Bantari »

tekesta wrote:
often wrote:this might be construed as flamebait/troll language, but it really isn't

i have not found any "western" teacher that i would want to get taught by or is of a strength that i would benefit from getting taught by.
Ding, ding, ding! You read my mind :lol:

Westerners are averse to struggle in the learning process, as it is often perceived to be a sign of intellectual weakness, not to mention a clear sign of inefficiency. So, they seek simple, elegant solutions to everything. Easterners, on the other hand, believe that struggle is an important part of the learning process and also essential for the development of moral character. So, they emphasize constant repetition and refinement.

I submit for your consideration this article, which may shed light on how East Asians and Westerners learn Go - or anything else. It's from November 2012, but its contents are most revelant to the discussion.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/11/12/164793058/struggle-for-smarts-how-eastern-and-western-cultures-tackle-learning


Great article. Thanks for sharing that.

One question was screaming at me, though, during reading about the "draw the cube" episode:
How would the teacher handle it if the pupil was still unable to draw proper cube at the end of the class/day/week? Would there be actual teaching involved at some point (teacher explaining or designing simpler but leading exercises?), or would the pupil just give up (with what consequences?), or would he continue to grind and struggle with that for the rest of his life? This was never even touched on, but i think this is very important.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by hyperpape »

tekesta wrote:Westerners are averse to struggle in the learning process, as it is often perceived to be a sign of intellectual weakness, not to mention a clear sign of inefficiency. So, they seek simple, elegant solutions to everything.
Do you think that the second sentence follows from the first? You can struggle to formulate a generalization for something that can be memorized. (I do agree that a prioritization of perceived smarts over hard work is a huge problem that seems to plague American students, more that some other countries).
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by Bill Spight »

tekesta wrote:Westerners are averse to struggle in the learning process, as it is often perceived to be a sign of intellectual weakness, not to mention a clear sign of inefficiency.


That seems like a strange claim to me. When I was in middle school, more than one teacher emphasized that getting the right answer was not everything, that the process of finding out was important, especially later in life, when there is nobody to say what the right answer is. We also learned the story about Robert Bruce and the spider. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again," is a Western saying. :)
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by Bill Spight »

hyperpape wrote:I do agree that a prioritization of perceived smarts over hard work is a huge problem that seems to plague American students, more that some other countries.


It may be a generational thing. For some time it seems like American schools and parents have been emphasizing self esteem over achievement. My teachers didn't care a fig about self esteem, and as a result taught a lot of students that they were not worth much and were not very capable. Maybe there has been an overcorrection.

I have been wondering about this prioritization of perceived smarts, given that America is still an anti-intellectual country. Perhaps there is an idea that some people are smart and some people are not, and if you are not, why beat yourself up? "E for effort" is another Western saying. If effort is not going to be rewarded, why bother?
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by often »

Bill Spight wrote:
tekesta wrote:Westerners are averse to struggle in the learning process, as it is often perceived to be a sign of intellectual weakness, not to mention a clear sign of inefficiency.


That seems like a strange claim to me. When I was in middle school, more than one teacher emphasized that getting the right answer was not everything, that the process of finding out was important, especially later in life, when there is nobody to say what the right answer is. We also learned the story about Robert Bruce and the spider. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again," is a Western saying. :)


that might not exactly be the right way to interpret his statement, although I'm subjecting it to my own interpretation.

Considering I learned on my own before getting a teacher, I can understand both sides.

The idea might be this for a lot of "western" people: "If i get it explained to me, then i will do it correct from here on out"
this is correct in stuff like mathematics, where there is typically only one way to solve a problem

this goes counter to a lot of asian thinking which sometimes is more "Here is the right answer/way to do this, and you'll eventually understand it naturally as time goes by"
(Again, this is my own interpretation)

i think the asian approach works better in go for many reasons:

1. moves the lesson along - you can cover more topics throughout the game(s) that you're having reviewed. if you spend too much time on just one situation on the board, you may not be getting full value of the different things you could be learning from the game

2. too precise of an answer is detrimental - go is a very flexible thing. what works in the situation of the game you're playing this time might be different the next time around. explaining a certain situation to death might be useful, but only for the precise situation. understanding all the whys might not be useful the next time something close to this happens

3. go is hard - some of these concepts are just hard. plain and simple. it will take a long time to really have it file into your brain and be something you can actively come back to

4. go is varied - for the same reason as #3, there is a good chance it might not even show up in the next 20 games you play. for that reason, its not worth sitting there learning it to death when it comes in
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

Bantari wrote:Great article. Thanks for sharing that.

One question was screaming at me, though, during reading about the "draw the cube" episode:
How would the teacher handle it if the pupil was still unable to draw proper cube at the end of the class/day/week? Would there be actual teaching involved at some point (teacher explaining or designing simpler but leading exercises?), or would the pupil just give up (with what consequences?), or would he continue to grind and struggle with that for the rest of his life? This was never even touched on, but i think this is very important.
Before we proceed, do you refer to a student who just takes longer than usual to learn a new skill or one with a real learning disability (or different learning style)?

I cannot give a precise answer as I have never worked in Japanese public education, but probably the first choice would be likely - unless the teacher is vindictive with a penchant for stigmatizing failure. When Toru Kumon helped his eldest son to overcome his mathematics difficulties, he gave him a set of exercises that, while easy, where numerous and repetitive. The idea behind this is to develop a solid foundation in basic skills before moving on to more advanced ones. Perhaps the students in class observed how a proper cube is drawn, then attempted again and again until they got it right. Normally, in Oriental pedagogy the preferred approach is to give the student a slightly difficult skill to master, allowing the student to gain practice through repeated attempts until the skill has been mastered.

As well, given the group-oriented cultures of East Asia, students probably help each other out with their studies instead of each student being on his/her own. This would make it easier for them to master new skills at school.

Japanese and other East Asian schoolchildren usually spend long hours studying (and their parents often cajole and goad them on), so few are the children that would have a lot of difficulty doing the task mentioned in the article.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

hyperpape wrote:Do you think that the second sentence follows from the first? You can struggle to formulate a generalization for something that can be memorized. (I do agree that a prioritization of perceived smarts over hard work is a huge problem that seems to plague American students, more that some other countries).
The shift in prioritization from hard work to perceived smarts reflects a shift from teaching the student new skills to preserving the students' self-image and self-esteem. Self-esteem is important, which is why teachers should carefully choose their language and avoid stigmatizing faliure. (Many students get more than enough criticism for their failures at home.) However, the central priority is to teach the student new skills such as math and literature. So, even if the teacher will appear to be sugarcoating everything, at least the skills are being taught and the students are being encouraged to learn them.

I believe the old way - hard work - is more democratic and less élitist. (Élitism associated with academic and intellectual achievement is one reason why US culture is mostly anti-intellectual; most Americans are proud of America's yeoman and pioneer roots.) The new way appears to promote the idea that students succeed at school because of innate smarts, when in fact constant practice is what allows a student to succeed. Even a peabrain can know rocket science if he/she practices the necessary skills on a daily basis.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

Bill Spight wrote:That seems like a strange claim to me. When I was in middle school, more than one teacher emphasized that getting the right answer was not everything, that the process of finding out was important, especially later in life, when there is nobody to say what the right answer is. We also learned the story about Robert Bruce and the spider. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again," is a Western saying. :)
So is, "Strike the iron while it's hot."

Over the past 30 years and beginning largely with the abolition of corporal punishment for students, there has been a shift in focus from the intellectual to the social. Perhaps it's a reaction to the Eurocentric curriculum that was standard is almost all US school districts up until 20 years ago. The non-European demographic was apparently feeling culturally and socially disenfranchised, as indicated by lower academic scores, so public education in the US began to shift towards a "multicultural" curriculum, so as to reduce the disparity between the students of European heritage and those not of European heritage. Under special consideration are African Americans, Native Americans, Americans of Latin American descent, and Americans of Asian descent.

African Americans and Americans of Latin American descent come from cultures where there is oral transmission of knowledge, rather than written transmission of knowledge. Hence, the idea of reading books on a regular basis may appear foreign to them, unless the student in question is already from a family where book reading is practiced often. Otherwise, verbal explanations of abstract concepts using concrete examples may be more effective than learning from books. Also, the academic intellectual traditions characteristic of European and Asian cultures are different from those of the aforementioned. Most African American families and Hispanic (Latin American) families are from regions where agriculture was the principal economic activity. Those who work in agriculture do not always have time to learn skills that would seem more befitting an urbanite. Also, in the middle of harvest season it's easier to verbally explain concepts than to open up a book.

Of course, that's not to say that agrarian peoples are intellectually underdeveloped. For instance, the style of agriculture employed by Mayan peoples (yes, Mayans exist even today) in Mexico and Central America mimics the regenerative cycles of tropical rainforest ecosystems. (Similar agricultural methods are employed in other tropical countries as well.) Using it requires knowledge of a vast range of plants and environmental phenomena, which is transmitted orally from generation to generation.

I believe that a multicultural curriculum can succeed, but IMO it is better for a student to develop a solid grounding in one particular culture before going on to another one. From what I've learned, though, the current focus of US public education is more social than academic, hence the focus on students' self-esteem.

I get a headache talking about the current state of US public education. It has changed a lot from when I was a child.

If you have the time, read this article and you will see how US public education has become social in its focus over the past 30 years. Even though it covers only math education, other subjects have been affected as well.

http://www.wgquirk.com/TruthK12.html

To avoid digressing further, I'll make a connection between the above mentioned and its relationship to Go. Go is of course an East Asian game, but it is one game that develops to a high degree the intellectual abilities of those who play it on a regular basis. As well, even those who do not know how to read a book can, with some prior explanation, learn how to read a board position. Go is a game that is fun and educational at the same time (but most Puritans would openly challenge me on this one ;-)). Go can serve as an educational tool to help students do better in school and even in life as well. Which would make it compatible with a socially focused public school curriculum; Go can instill a humane view of the world, which is vital for any multicultural society.

Perhaps we should start a new thread based on the information in the last paragraph.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by Bantari »

tekesta wrote:
Bantari wrote:Great article. Thanks for sharing that.

One question was screaming at me, though, during reading about the "draw the cube" episode:
How would the teacher handle it if the pupil was still unable to draw proper cube at the end of the class/day/week? Would there be actual teaching involved at some point (teacher explaining or designing simpler but leading exercises?), or would the pupil just give up (with what consequences?), or would he continue to grind and struggle with that for the rest of his life? This was never even touched on, but i think this is very important.
Before we proceed, do you refer to a student who just takes longer than usual to learn a new skill or one with a real learning disability (or different learning style)?


I am not sure. And I guess the teacher would also not know at the moment - faced with lack of any serious diagnosis of learning disability.

What prompts my question is some serious interest here. Observing asian-style Go teachers at work, and seeing sometimes Go students who just don't get it for prolonged periods of time (sometimes never) - I have not observed much other behavior from the teacher than (a) keep assigning the same kind of task over and over (i.e. persisting in a method which clearly does not work for this perticular student), and/or (b) giving up on the student at some point. Now - my remarks are driven more by observation than experience, and the observation was always that of unpaid, almost casual lesson. But it makes me curious how a situation of a "stubborn" student is handled under the easter teaching paradigm.

The article you gave was going where I thought it would answer the question, and then the situation got resolved before it came so far. I understand what this example was to illustrate and the reason for resolving it the way it was... but I think it is interesting (and important) to go this one step further.

For example - insei students who fail to make a pro within a certain time, do they get specialized and personalized training, maybe more individual teacher attention, or are they being given up on, eventually expelled to make room for the next batch? If they get some individual training, what form does it take? More of the same, or seeing how the usual method fails with this particular student, the teacher would try different approaches? In other way - how flexible the eastern approach is?

I honestly have no clue, but to fully understand (and evaluate) eastern teaching methods, I think this is not a trivial issue to investigate.

PS>
Personally, when thinking of the differences between eastern and western methods of teaching Go, it is my impression that, where results are concerned, western approach emphasizes raising as many as possible although not necessarily to the top (so a lot of potential might go unused and to waste), while eastern approach concentrates on raising to the top the few that can make it, and giving up on the rest. But this is Go teaching, and my personal feeling only, might or might not have anything to do with the teaching at schools or general teaching methods.

All in all, very interesting, I think.
I wonder if anybody here has more experience with that and could help answer such questions.

tekesta wrote:I cannot give a precise answer as I have never worked in Japanese public education, but probably the first choice would be likely - unless the teacher is vindictive with a penchant for stigmatizing failure. When Toru Kumon helped his eldest son to overcome his mathematics difficulties, he gave him a set of exercises that, while easy, where numerous and repetitive. The idea behind this is to develop a solid foundation in basic skills before moving on to more advanced ones. Perhaps the students in class observed how a proper cube is drawn, then attempted again and again until they got it right. Normally, in Oriental pedagogy the preferred approach is to give the student a slightly difficult skill to master, allowing the student to gain practice through repeated attempts until the skill has been mastered.

As well, given the group-oriented cultures of East Asia, students probably help each other out with their studies instead of each student being on his/her own. This would make it easier for them to master new skills at school.

Japanese and other East Asian schoolchildren usually spend long hours studying (and their parents often cajole and goad them on), so few are the children that would have a lot of difficulty doing the task mentioned in the article.
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by tekesta »

Bill Spight wrote:It may be a generational thing. For some time it seems like American schools and parents have been emphasizing self esteem over achievement. My teachers didn't care a fig about self esteem, and as a result taught a lot of students that they were not worth much and were not very capable. Maybe there has been an overcorrection.
Perhaps the regular derision in classrooms of yesteryear was to inspire temperance and diligence in the student - as well as encourage respect for the instructor's authority. Of course, it is now proven that occasional praise and respectful dialogue contribute positively to academic performance. As you say, though, there appears to have been an overcorrection. Much of this is related to the dilemma of classroom discipline.

AFAIK, the idea behind classroom discipline is to create an environment in which the student can learn new skills without distraction. Of course, however, this is often easier said than done for many instructors, short of either lavishly rewarding good behavior and eager learning or just taking a cane to the offenders' buttocks. East Asians appear to have the right idea in this regard; by giving the instructor a wide scope of authority, he/she is able to enforce classroom discipline in a manner conducive to formal learning, with mostly favorable results.

In the US, most parents nowadays side with the student (their children) and largely antagonize the instructor. Not very encouraging for the instructor. Although I believe the parent must always side with the child in a show of support during a difficult situation, the views of the instructor are just as valid and can yield information on the kind of classroom environment in which the child is learning. The idea is for the child to recognize that the instructor makes the learning environment possible and as such he/she should behave towards the instructor in a manner that is considered respectful. In return, the instructor should facilitate a learning environment in which students can learn the subject matter without undue distraction.

Which reminds me, there is also the phenomenon of students vying for individual attention in a classroom setting. (I used to be one of those.) I wonder if these students do not get enough attention from their parents at home. I've seen too many instances in which the child would like to say something to his/her parents, only to have the parents ignore him/her outright. Not conducive to respectful behavior, is it?

Up until a few years ago, in the US and in other countries the parents almost always sided with the instructor unconditionally. It is still like this in many countries, but in the US there has been a trend toward reducing the culpability of the child, but this seems to be practiced out of context IMO, since the teachers are often seen to be at fault and in many instances the instructors can be exonerated. I would dare to say that it is the parents who are at fault if a child is performing poorly at school. Mom and Dad are any child's first instructors and, if the parents themselves do not demonstrate any real interest in academic education, why would the child be expected to perform well in school, if not for any reason other than to give them excuse to brag about themselves and stoke their plus-sized egos? Unless the child learned somewhere else that academic achievement is a good thing, it's likely that he/she will follow Mom & Dad's lead.

I have been wondering about this prioritization of perceived smarts, given that America is still an anti-intellectual country. Perhaps there is an idea that some people are smart and some people are not, and if you are not, why beat yourself up? "E for effort" is another Western saying. If effort is not going to be rewarded, why bother?
It's probably perceived this way in many American households. The parents themselves usually do not have any real interest in academic education, at least because it is considered to be an impractical waste of time. Also, someone who's spent a lot of time reading books is often perceived to be out of touch with the reality of the common citizen. Under this assumption one can say that it is more respectful - and therefore more conducive to social harmony - to allow a person to persist in their ignorance, than to alert them to the same and exhort them to come out of it.

There is a book by Richard Hofstadter, published in 1964 and titled Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. It is considered to be the definitive work on the subject, as it deals with the history of US anti-intellectualism. One thing I've discovered when reading about the book is that intellectual achievement has been perceived by most Americans as a form of privilege, not unlike great wealth or political influence. Hence there is the tendency to deride intellectuals as cold and distant, much the way that the rich would distance themselves from the poor. As well, whereas overreliance on the intellect will likely lead to moral decadence, strong personal character, plainspokenness, and a heart with a clear moral compass will help one to stay the course of righteous conduct; those with an overly curious mind would lack the temperance needed to deal with important issues in a practical manner. In fact, one can say that practicality is an American virtue, probably even more so than hard work.

Go is probably not very popularized in the West due to its reputation as an intellectual pursuit. That is, it something that the practical citizen cannot learn in just a few easy lessons. Even in East Asia the game has suffered a negative reputation more than once. During the Tang Dynasty in China Go was recast as an artistic pursuit worthy of an intellectual's time and attention, whereas up until then it was regarded mainly as a way for the upper classes to idle away their time. IMO this change was necessary if Go was to continue being played widely in China.

I found that out in this article, which, unfortunately for English speakers, is in Spanish.

http://lasindias.com/como-el-weiqi-conquisto-china

Go's reputation as an intellectual pursuit might be what is holding back its popularization in Western countries. Although... if a German auto mechanic or beer brewer were to pursue perfection in his craft the way East Asian pros pursue perfection in the game, would that make him an intellectual in the Western - or at least US - sense of the word?
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Re: Differences between Asian Professional and Other Teacher

Post by Boidhre »

tekesta wrote:Go's reputation as an intellectual pursuit might be what is holding back its popularization in Western countries. Although... if a German auto mechanic or beer brewer were to pursue perfection in his craft the way East Asian pros pursue perfection in the game, would that make him an intellectual in the Western - or at least US - sense of the word?


The example I think of is of a Master Distiller in a Whiskey Distillery. This is a person who would be very respected for their knowledge and skill in their field and (from interactions I've seen) been treated as another expert by for example academics (this doesn't mean mightn't consider them an idiot outside of their field, and this is something that holds true for pretty much everything). I don't think anyone would call them intellectuals, but intellectuals aren't the only group respected for their knowledge, ability or skill so I don't see it as an issue.

Chess has the same problem as go does. People have a misconception about someone needing to be very intelligent (read: book smart) to even enjoy the game as an adult, never mind compete in tournaments. They are games for other people, that kid in class who was always ahead of the rest and so on and in my experience most of the people we get in the door at the club fit this stereotype but the strongest player we have would run right against it.
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