My impression was that people thought they do feel pain because of the scream, but the scream is actually the sound of steam escaping from their shell. As regards their feeling pain or not when it happens, I imagine it's hard to say what pain means at that level of cognition. It's certainly possible that, like the proverbial frog put in a room temperature pot of water that is brought up to a boil, they never experience distress, but then so is the opposite.

This is an interesting point at the end. I think you should always spend an amount that allows you to view your board and stones as 'equipment'. IMHO the point is to play Go unless (until) you become a collector. You will get the most out of your stones if you perceive them as 'attractive' but not so 'special' that you need to protect them. I like the look and feel of slate and shell. I have two sets of snow-grade stones but it is the ratty old glass stone / folding board set that goes out on the veranda in the direct sunlight when I study on a nice Sunday morning in the spring. If I were doing it again, I would go with cheaper slate and shell, and use them harder.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Addressing the original topic:

Why buy a mahogany chess set instead of a plastic one? Both sets have the same rules and there's no difference in play.

It's a matter of class and eloquence. You can have fun with a plastic set, I've played with plastic chess pieces (and go stones for that matter) all the time. When you want a touch of class, to use those pieces of equipment that have, through thousands of years evolved to be the apex of a hugely influential cultural game, then that's a reason to buy Slate and Shell. To play on a Kaya board with quality stones adds a depth to the game you can't get with normal glass or plastic, this depth doesn't come from the game itself but the added aesthetic feeling you get when you enjoy these pieces. It's hard to describe

Perhaps it's the "soul" of the items that adds to the quality. Imagine buying a Katana, hand forged from the finest Tamahagane iron sand; carefully crafted and polished by artisans over weeks or even months of work. You can buy a sword of equal cutting quality from a cheap factory in China for a mere fraction of the cost, but it's a souless, cold thing when compared to something that has actual care and love go into the manufacture thereof.

Slate and shell stones go through a careful manufacturing process where each individual stone is checked for flaws and some sets are even entirely hand made (Usually the highest quality native Suwabate stones). Each piece is in it's own right a work of art (as much from the clam as the manufacturers) whereas plastic, glass and (I hate to say it) Yunzi don't quite have the same intensive manufacturing process.

Another example, why buy a grand piano when you can get a small electric one at a fraction of the price. Both play just as well, but which looks better in the home? The grand piano adds a great sense of class and eloquence to any living room and while the electric piano is practical it just doesn't hold up in comparison.

It's a personal decision I suppose, but I recommend having a cheap go set around even if you do purchase an expensive one.

As a side note:

Slate and Shell stones don't chip nearly as easily as glass (especially with the higher grade shell stones) and feel much better than plastic.

I like this attitude. I have nice slate and shell stones, a pair of mulberry bowls, and a genuine kaya table top board, which I bought decades ago in Japan, and I use them a lot, playing at home or studying using them. The board is nicely covered in small dents from the play of the stones. The bowls are in good shape. The stones are showing their age with a mellowing of the color which is itself quite pleasing. The "used" appearance of my equipment is satisfying, reminding me of the enjoyment I've had and will continue to have using it.

Regarding collecting, I think most of the go equipment we buy nowadays would not really be collectible in the sense of desirable to other go lovers and, perhaps, selling for a lot of money at an auction. Unless you have a board made by a famous maker, rare bowls of island mulberry, black persimmon, lacquer, thick stones made from clams harvested off Japanese beaches, etc., all of which you keep under careful protection and hardly use, you really have nice "utility" equipment, luxurious to an extent but not unusual. The so-called standard grade stones, by the way, were traditionally called "jitsuyou" which means "practical or utility". Maybe "utility" seemed too common-sounding so the sellers changed the term I don't mind the term and, indeed, have a set of utility slate and shell stones. In order to keep slate and shell stones in top condition you have to wash your hands before using them and clean them properly at regular intervals. This becomes something of an annoyance. I like just to pick up the stones and play or use them to study pro games without having to go through a ritual-like preparation, so I tend to use the utility grade stones more than my best stones, and I forego the ritual washing.

"X sea creature doesn't feel pain" is a pretty common claim for some reason. As for what pain means at that level of cognition, I don't know either but I feel like the onus of proof should be on the person that wants to boil them alive.

This is beside the point though, since I've only ever heard this justification from people who are willing to kill almost any kind of animal regardless of whether it's clearly sentient and capable of emotion or not. How exactly we go about deciding the value of life and it's various forms is a very difficult and very important issue, but I don't think that's actually the conversation we're having.

Edit: Sorry for the derail OP. On topic I agree with Erythen that buying an item with a sense of history and culture is very different from buying something mass produced (though I'm not sure his quality comparisons are all entirely accurate), but I don't think that can really supersede personal taste. The extra value in these kinds of items is what we ourselves feel, so if a classy item doesn't immediately grab you as being worth the extra money I can't imagine that it ever would be.

How they clean the equipment in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZIwsXpve8

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Thank you, that was nice

Could you pls tell us …

• what powder that was that they put into the bag with the white stones after washing them in the egg yolk*?
• were they rinsed in water afterwards?
• And were the white stones dried before the powder procedure?

Thanks in advance,

Tom

<edit>

* Regarding the egg yolk pls see EdLee’s post two posts after this one

</edit>

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

It's イボタロウ a wax powder. I'd imagine you give the stones a little bit of a buffing after applying it. I'm not sure though.

You can buy a set for stones here. But it looks like you would need to use one of those redirect services like Tenso as they don't ship international.

I'm interested to know who's tried this stuff, or if anyone know a better place to order from.

Hi foe, I know you asked about slate and shell stones. (My favorite is Kuroki size 38 standard grade.)
Here's a video about gobans. (Some of the captions included: 20 years of drying on the shelf; 3 days of sanding, etc.)
Part of the value lies in the craftsmanship. (And part of the value is in the material, of course.)

Mr. Kuroda's Gobans

Because of that egg-yolk video, a few years ago I specifically asked Mr. Kuroki about using eggs for cleaning the shell stones. His reply, "Please don't."

We've hit on fetishism, elitism, aesthetics, animal rights, and stupid stone cleaning tricks. (Shells have been lying on the bottom of the ocean for decades and slate is a freakin' igneous rock! They will survive playing the game and they will withstand being cleaned with simple soap and water!)

I have many sets of go stones.
I can only play with one at a time.
My two favorites: flawless 9mm Japanese glass (from ye olde Ishi Press, ca 1985) and shells from Kuroki Goishi Ten that have purple and brown striation—incredibly cool, each stone is obviously unique.

Why do I like the shell and slate set? They have class. You can sense the many artisans' hand-work.

_________________
David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

Thank you for that information. The thought of someone cleaning something/anything with eggs somewhere grosses me out for whatever reason. I hope you can spread Mr. Kuroki's wisdom far and wide.

Well, clams are not pests unlike mosquitoes, and bacteria that makes you sick. Clams have already been so over fished in Japan that these days the clams to make stones for Go usually come from Mexico.

You are now classifying living organisms by their worth rather than talking about the ethics of killing individual living organisms regardless of their worth.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9937 for continued off-topic discussion.

Some people play Go, others collect Go equipment. That's about it.

Well, there seems to be an overlap between both groups you mention.

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

There is a whole spectrum of chess sets made of all kinds of materials. At which exact point does one acquire "class and eloquence"?
Same goes for Go sets.

PS>
To me, class was always about behavior and values, not possession and appearance.
But I am interested in others' opinions.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

With regards to the kind of material, a simple method may be to apply the 80:20 rule :
If you own the type of equipment which 80% of the go playing population would love to own but do not, you are in the 20% with "class and eloquence".

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

No you're not, you've just an expensive version of the fundamental equipment. I need an iMac to perofrm my job as video producer but I really want one of theose new MacPro units. I could get my boss to buy one form me but it wouldn't make me any classier or more elequent. Heck, it would make a jerky becaue it's a waste of corporate resources.

You're only in the 20% of go players if you can actually play the game better than the other 80%. I will never be in that 20% but I've got some badass bowls and stones and boards.

_________________
David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

The question wasn't about whether you become classier or more eloquent, that's about your skill. It's about acquiring classier and more eloquent equipment. If you have some badass bowls and stones and boards, that means you have acquired some "classy and eloquent" equipment. And as you note, it doesn't automatically make you yourself more classy and eloquent skill-wise in the game.

Maybe I should reformulate the phrase:

If you own the type of equipment which 80% of the go playing population would love to own but do not, you are in the 20% which has acquire equipment with "class and eloquence".

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.