#233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 3 . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Time to wedge and fight. Let's see what response white gives for this.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

K5
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 3 7 . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Alright. I will assume we are playing the variation I said was white's best option. We'll see.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 3 7 . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
i see a double hane coming.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Back on :w22:, you said:
Hades12 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
this move seals the side from being undercut. Still a large invasion point.
What did you mean by those two statements ?
1. What did you mean by "seals the side from being undercut" ? Could you elaborate with a diagram. Which undercut ? Who undercuts where ?

2. What did you mean by "Still a large invasion point" ? Could you elaborate with a diagram. Which invasion point ? Who invades where ?

Thanks.
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Post by EdLee »

Hades12 wrote:i see a double hane coming.
Not sure which double hane Hades meant.
But W has shape problems after :b1: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 1 X X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Hades12 wrote:i see a double hane coming.
Which double hane ? Could you elaborate with a diagram ?
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 9 3 7 . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Do I have any other move I should even consider? This looks great for me. It exposes a ton of weakness in white. :w28: doesn't seem to hurt my stone at :b21: much while :b29: seems to decimate white's position.

I am no longer concerned with simply how to live on the bottom in sente. Now I am considering all sorts of possibilities for how I can cut white to shreds.

I don't get this reply by white at all.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 What does white do?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . b 2 O X O a . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 1 X X 3 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
So after :w2:, which has to be the move he'll play or I'll take it immediately, I can play :b3:. Now white has to pick. Does he let me cut off his stone at O3 with 'a' or does he let me cut off his group at D2 with 'b'.

Not a fun choice in my mind. Not to mention :w2: seems bad just because it creates the dreaded empty triangle. Either way, I have some reading to do. Maybe this is actually good for white and will kill my stones? :scratch:

But something tells me that if I play correctly I will get a favorable result here.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Edlee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . b . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The undercut at a and the invasion at b.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 2 O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 1 X X 3 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Of course, W doesn't want to play the empty triangle :w2: above.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 4 O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . 6 5 3 O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 1 X X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . 0 . 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 9 3 7 . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

If B pushes and cuts with :b1: and :b3: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . 6 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 2 O O 5 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O 1 O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X 4 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 9 X . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 8 X O O O X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X 0 . . O X O X O . 2 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . 4 3 . 7 . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 5 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Edlee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X 1 2 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This double hane
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Hades12 wrote:This double hane
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O . O X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X X 1 2 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
So, you think B will play the above :b21: now ?
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Hades12 wrote:The undercut at a and the invasion at b.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . b . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
So when you played :w22:, what was your feeling on the invasion :black:(b) ?
What was your reading on :black:(b) at that time ?
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