i like this is exchange for two reasons.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . 2 , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . b . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has a weakness at a. Also a possible invasion at b has been eliminated. Black may be considered over concentrated but I think it's okay here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . O . d . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . c . . e . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . f . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Moves that I'm looking at. Invasion at a seems hasty.
B feels like the honest move. C and e feel like they want to just minimize white. D asks white to play at the upper 2-4 and ten make a base to live. F obviously enlarges my moyo. Not sure the correct choice. Whites next move will help make the decision.

i expected white to push out like he did. I played it because I see white as alive with the attachment into the corner anyway. So maybe I'm leaning on the strong stones to make myself stronger. Maybe I'm wrong. I realize I have a lot if cutting points but I like putting the pressure on white with my move 35. Also I have miai I suppose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white cuts I take b. if he takes the corner I can fix at a.

That exchange doesn't actually make you stronger, in fact it makes your group weaker and have bad shape. Tenuki was better, or you could think about b11 but need to read white resistance.

Did you check the timestamps first before you asked the question?
I posted the diagram 5 hours before Hades played , and 6 hours before opex replied with .
Of course, I have no way of knowing who came up with the variation first in our minds before posting.
Yes, it was independent.Yes, I know what it is. In my games, my opponents and I make lots of thank-you moves for one another.
I'm guessing you also make some thank-you moves for your opponents, and vice versa.When I posted, I thought the exchange - was good for B. I could be completely wrong, of course.

At that time, I thought helped B. But now, if W had not played , then B could play at B9, forcing W to live small in gote, painful for W.
So in the real game forced W to come out with . So, probably better at C11 (kosumi) instead.

Uberdude, you are commenting on an on-going game and giving information to a player that could affect the game.
Very specific information: with coordinates, and evaluation of the status of groups and shapes and results, and ideas and suggestions.
You have done this in at least one other Malkovich game before (wish I could find the link).

I'm sure you never do this in real-life games (unless, of course, all parties agree beforehand that it's OK for you to kibitz during their game),
especially not in tournament games -- or do you ?!

his comment was ridiculing my play five moves ago and saying it was bad. I can't go back and fix. He don't think commenting on a finished sequence ad giving alternate moves is bad. It's not like I can do anything about it now. Opex feel free to read the comment. If you think it affects the game to such a degree that we should adjourn it, feel free.

i don't plan on fixing that shape any time soon anyway. I plan on attacking whites three stones and enlarging my moyo. I have enough with those two to win. I feel very ahead.

Of course, it is up to opex to decide to continue the game or not.Hades, that is very valuable information. It DOES affect the game. You cannot go back and undo a sequence, no,
but knowing whether the result is good or bad for you CAN affect how you play from now on.
If you know a result is good, you can play one way.
If you know a result is bad, or if you have certain strengths and weaknesses, you can play another way.
It matters a lot.

Can you imagine walking around a tournament (or even casual games) and kibitzing in mid-game out loud to the players ??

• You picked the wrong joseki. You should've blocked the other way.
• That's clearly too close to thickness; you should've played here instead.
• That's bad shape; now you have a weakness here.

honestly, i still regard this as exchange as fine for me. Plus im okay with this weakness if you've read my other post. I plan on enlarging my moyo and attacking white's bottom right, and giving him the opportunity to burn moves killing off the stones. And even if he does they have aji. fixing shape there doesn't feel urgent. I don't need to live everywhere. Plus I already was aware of the cut before uberdude posted. I know i have to moves to profit with that group.

It's not about the moves. It's about the kibitz.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . , . . . d X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O e . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basically these are the choices. c helps to get rid of r5, but it might be gote. I'd like to try and invade the bottom if it is gote, and to reduce if it is not. d if for building the top, but black can hane, not that i can build something great.. Maybe i should do e first.. Until r9 e could start a splitting attack, now he can just connect on top of these two stones letting me connect. As for b, black will go into the corner, and although i can swallow c14, it feels not worth giving up the corner. On the other hand, a is like please, fix what you should have fixed already. If b ends up being dame for black, it's ok though. Wait.. then it'll be harder to attack that new group without base.. I kinda really want b... Need to think more.

I trust Uberdude and Hades that they discuss what has already happenned. EdLee, thank you for being watchful.

And I agree with uberdude that the exchange in question was duff for black!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm38 Still thinking, sorry...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I W doesn't pretect down here next, B has a cut.

Let the fun begin.

Well, i can just protect the right corner, but it's so passive. This way black will get all that he wants..

Yes I saw your post was first, but was surprised that both you and hades came up with the same (bad/strange) move that feels very unnatural to me so wanted to confirm. I want to understand both of your thinking that made you want to play this move to satisfy my own curiosity, to help me teach better and also help me generate the same mistake when I give handicap.



I thought you would know what it is, but it seemed a good idea to clarify vocabulary before proceeding.



I see thanks for clarifying. Yes, you are wrong (assuming white continues with 34 as he did)(I am sure, I would make a $100,000 bet). Btw, I don't think of 32 for 33 as an exchange. 32 was a gote move which stabilised the white group, and then black chose to make the 33-34 bad exchange, so 33 is the thank you move.



Yes it would be difficult for white to omit the slide to 32 as black's attack at b9 is painful, though if white pushes at d8 and black naturally blocks at e8 then c10 is a good tesuji for white to live or escape, so it might be better for black to attack with c10 rather than b9. Yes at c11 is better than c10 in the game, though being gote is rather slow. In fact, looking at the whole board, black r9/r8 vs white r10 is so huge I would not dismiss white playing there instead of the b10 slide.

So he must think that it was a mistake of mine to not protect... Okay, i have no good answer. So let's try to go on

just trying to reduce his potential while increasing mine.

EdLee's favourite:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm42 Broken shape for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X B W . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . W B . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if white gets to push up here it feels bad for black. Seems like a mutual point.

I'll reply once, otherwise this move for black is very sente.