8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.

Shawn Ligocki · Post by **Shawn Ligocki** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:41 pm

I played this very sobering game recently in which I felt like I was woefully behind on territory, but I couldn't figure out how to catch up. Instead a fight started and I was cut to pieces.

Thank you very much if you can provide any advice!

I am White

Specific moves I would like help with:

Move 11: I know I choose Joseki poorly here (probably should have split since I don't have a stone around Q10), but given this choice and the fact that Black played submissively at P3, is there a better play for

? Maybe around R10?

Move 13: Could I have played this better? Perhaps a high or further off pincer to avoid him playing the shoulder hit and making my wall seem silly?

Move 29: It seems pretty clear now that this move just removes Aji in the corner, where would be a better move? Another 1 space jump? splitting off Black's pincering stone? I'm not very familiar with this 3-point, high pincer.

Move 33: With hindsight I can see that this did not end well, what would be some good moves at this point? I'm worried that Black has too much territory/moyo on the left and I have almost none anywhere. Should I not worry too much about that?

Thank you all.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:19 pm

Shawn Ligocki · Post by **Shawn Ligocki** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:56 pm

Thanks for the comments Ed, I especially appreciate how you explain how my game plays were actually good when I had second guessed them after the fact.

But I don't quite understand what variation I would be happy with from

cutting at P11. Looking at http://eidogo.com/, the cut is only suggested if White has the ladder, which I don't. Do you mean that I could use a ladder breaker to get a free move? Or is there a different variation I don't understand? Is this just a good place to start a fight because I have thickness to push Black towards?

Are you talking about this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm19 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 4 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 2 O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I must admit I don't really know what to do from here. It doesn't look great for White, as I'll still need to strengthen that cutting stone and my low right group looks like it would be weak to plays like S14.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:02 pm

I'm not familiar with that sequence either, but back at move 13 you could choose a simpler variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: Though "simple" may not be fully accurate - for example, black might play a double approach or as below (though I think white is fine):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Also, at move 15, jumping with the pincer is probably also playable, but may become quite complicated:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Shawn Ligocki · Post by **Shawn Ligocki** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:07 pm

Thanks for the ideas, illluck.

Hey EdLee, any comments on my question? I'm still interested to understand what you meant there.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:51 pm

Hi Shawn, I also don't know much about the push-and-cut variations.
My emphasis was on "study".

( I specifically did not mention any evaluations. )

On this board, not sure if W is strong enough to do the push-and-cut variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . O 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 5 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +----------------------------------------[/go]

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8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.

8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.

Re: 8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.

Re: 8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.

Re: 8k - Felt like I was cut to pieces.