I am reading here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BigEyeLiberties
The first example for the four-space big eye explains that there are 5 liberties, two for the marked stones in the first diagram, plus three for the resulting 3-space eye.
Why doesn't the atari at a in the third diagram count? Wouldn't it take 6 moves for W to pick up the black group?
Big Eye Liberties
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Bill Spight
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Re: Big Eye Liberties
I am not sure which diagram you are talking about, but I think I can answer your question. Ataris in big eyes do not count because they are answered. It is the net number of moves to capture that we are interested in.saxmaam wrote:I am reading here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BigEyeLiberties
The first example for the four-space big eye explains that there are 5 liberties, two for the marked stones in the first diagram, plus three for the resulting 3-space eye.
Why doesn't the atari at a in the third diagram count? Wouldn't it take 6 moves for W to pick up the black group?
Black's big eye has three liberties to two liberties in White's small eye. Therefore Black just wins the capturing race if White plays first.
After
the Black eye has only two liberties, just enough to win the capturing race. The sequence, 
- 
- took away only one liberty of Black's big eye.¿Es claro?
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Hushfield
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Re: Big Eye Liberties
[edit]: there used to be a brain fart here.
Last edited by Hushfield on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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saxmaam
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Re: Big Eye Liberties
Bill Spight wrote:I am not sure which diagram you are talking about, but I think I can answer your question. Ataris in big eyes do not count because they are answered. It is the net number of moves to capture that we are interested in.
Thank you. I think there's some dissonance between these answers, but they both give me some fresh insights.Hushfield wrote:So why is the proverb four is five, and not four is six? Because you only start counting the liberties after white plays the vital point of one. Otherwise, black is just alive. Why do we only start counting it after white has killed? That is because the question of liberties for big eyes mostly comes up in regards to capturing races.
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illluck
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Re: Big Eye Liberties
I don't think that's true. It's five liberties before white plays the first inside move. White needs two moves for the third to be atari, at which point black needs to respond (i.e. it takes white two moves to reduce the 4-space to a 3-space). Then the 3-space eye takes three moves to capture.Hushfield wrote: So why is the proverb four is five, and not four is six? Because you only start counting the liberties after white plays the vital point of one. Otherwise, black is just alive. Why do we only start counting it after white has killed? That is because the question of liberties for big eyes mostly comes up in regards to capturing races.
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Hushfield
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Re: Big Eye Liberties
Yes, of course. I forgot to look at black having to take and white placing in the middle of 3, which cannot be counted as an extra liberty.illluck wrote:I don't think that's true. It's five liberties before white plays the first inside move. White needs two moves for the third to be atari, at which point black needs to respond (i.e. it takes white two moves to reduce the 4-space to a 3-space). Then the 3-space eye takes three moves to capture.Hushfield wrote: So why is the proverb four is five, and not four is six? Because you only start counting the liberties after white plays the vital point of one. Otherwise, black is just alive. Why do we only start counting it after white has killed? That is because the question of liberties for big eyes mostly comes up in regards to capturing races.