Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:17 am

I used to play a game against a 4 kyu with 9 handicap stones.
He kindly told me to place the stones where I wanted on the goban.

I don't remember the exact position where I placed the hanidcap stones, but I remember that was something quite "classic", with some hoshi, komoku, shimari, extensions and so on...
after a bit more thougth, I wonder what would a game look like if the handicap stones where placed like that :

ok it's 10 stones not 9... but that seems really strong as a starting point...

if only 9 stones :

Then as white... would you place your first move at "a" or would you just take a corner ?
if white "a" I even don't know what I would replay may just "b" or maybe a corner I think... or maybe "c"

Anyone to try that on a malkovitch game :rambo:

[edit]corrected some typo[/edit]

[EDIT SUMMARY ZONE]
Illluck kindly accepted to play some variations with me, here are the summary of those games :

Try #1 - The Island, 10 stones handicap, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/579811
235 moves (255 moves - 20 initials moves to build the initial position)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi if I was playing black :
B(illluck)+56.5 (49.5 + 6.5 + 0.5)

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+--------------------------------------+

The game

Try #2 - Borders & Tengen, 9 stones hanicap, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/586484
212 moves (229 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+32.5 (38.5 - 6)

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+--------------------------------------+

The game

Try #3 - Standard 9 stones, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/588995
294 moves
W(illluck)+20.5

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The game

EdLee comments :
viewtopic.php?p=164723#p164723

Try #4 - The Big Square, 9 stones hanicap, OGS : http://online-go.com/game/605761
226 moves (243 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+39.5 (45.5 - 6)

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The game

Homework :

[/EDIT]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:23 am

Hi oca, I think that's another popular discussion.

I wonder if Sensei's already has something about it...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X X X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm curious: what do people think the above dumpling is worth, approximately,
in terms of the normal star-point handi stones ? It seems less than 9 stones.
(The tengen stone is clearly inefficient.

)

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:27 am

Which looks better (more efficient):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X , X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

oca wrote:Then as white... would you place your first move at "a" or would you just take a corner ?
if white "a" I even don't know what I would replay may just "b" or maybe a corner I think... or bay be "c"

White a is nonsense, you think you are taking black's 2nd eye and going to attack that tank with a tennis ball? Both players should play big moves in the corners.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:29 am

What about this 10 stone placement?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X X X . X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I want to win with 9 stones, probably will go with something like the below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:36 am

illluck wrote:If I want to win with 9 stones, probably will go with something like the below:
$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hi illluck, what's your theory that your above placement gives you a better chance against a pro than the normal star-point placement ?
Luckily, this hypothesis is testable!

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:42 am

Uberdude wrote:White a is nonsense, you think you are taking black's 2nd eye and going to attack that tank with a tennis ball? Both players should play big moves in the corners.

In the past, I used to destroy very big walls with only a small ball
but...

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:44 am

EdLee wrote:Hi illluck, what's your theory that your above placement gives you a better chance against a pro than the normal star-point placement ?
Luckily, this hypothesis is testable!

My idea is that the board here is a bit more settled in most of the area compared to a normal placement where there are more places for white to play and also more chances for interactions between areas. I suspect my placement is less optimal in the sense that perfect play would probably result in a lower winning margin than the traditional placement, but could be easier for black to try to simplify the game. Also, I play sansan regularly in my games so I'm just more familiar with them compared to hoshi or komoku.

Edit: Oh, Ed, didn't see your question about that dumpling. My feeling is around 3 stones as it seems similar to a ponnuki (the proverbial 30 points) but potentially somewhat worse due to its lack of eyeshape.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:52 am

Hi illluck, thanks, actually my question about your hypothesis was semi-rhetorical; sorry.

Curious: how much experience have you had with handi games against pros (9 stones or otherwise) ?
Do you happen to know your approximate level relative to pro (how many handi stones from pro) ?

dfunkt · Post by **dfunkt** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:12 am

I played a handicap game once and gave my opponent 2 moves for each of my moves for my first 9 turns. It made an interesting game even though he was much weaker.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:14 am

I've never actually played a pro. I think the strongest player I played was in viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848. He is a mid to strong Tygem 9d, and I seem to remember him stating that he's probably about 2-3 stones away from top pros. This would suggest 9 stones to be approximately the handicap where I would have a chance against pros. I think I'm probably around KGS 2-3d nowadays (potentially slightly weaker than when I played that game T.T), which also suggests that 9 stones is probably not too far off against pros.

However, that does not take into account my inability to play handicap games as black (see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9270). My opponent is about KGS 6d (and I think my previous record against him is 1/0 at even games) and I still lost the game. So I suspect that in actuality my chances against pros will be pretty slim at even 9 stones.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:21 am

dfunkt wrote:gave my opponent 2 moves for each of my moves for my first 9 turns.

You guys were wise; we tried variations where it was two B moves for each W move, forever. That was too much. ( We also very quickly found out that four B moves per W move meant lots of B ponnukis and zero W stones on the board.

)

Eventually we adjusted to every 4 or 5 B moves, B could go twice in a row -- that was manageable. W had to adopt new strategies, too, it was interesting. For example: life-and-death, ladders, ko, even simple cuts, etc., all change their meanings -- both B and W must read ahead of the up-coming double-B move.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:43 am

Just tryied against smartgo, what weird game...

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:55 am

In the original position I think I would just ignore it. Remembering that W is 9 ranks stronger it is safe to assume that he can select joseki in each corner which will give him territory and not risk any ladders. Let B have the outside and the 10 stones will end up useless in the middle of his territory.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:00 am

illluck wrote:I've never actually played a pro. I think the strongest player I played was in viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848. He is a mid to strong Tygem 9d, and I seem to remember him stating that he's probably about 2-3 stones away from top pros. This would suggest 9 stones to be approximately the handicap where I would have a chance against pros. I think I'm probably around KGS 2-3d nowadays (potentially slightly weaker than when I played that game T.T), which also suggests that 9 stones is probably not too far off against pros.

I think you are selling yourself short. It may be tough against a top pro but I think you can probably give a low-level pro a good game on a much lower handicap. I once beat Jimmy Cha on 4 stones and I have a KGS 3d account. I was about the same strength then as now. Of course, he didn't like it and completely wiped me off the board the next time we played, also on 4. I think he was 4 dan pro at the time.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:55 am

Another try with illluck's proposition

I was a bit less confortable with that one... and don't understand why smartgo let me take is group at the end...

Life In 19x19

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re:

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement