Frustrated Beginner

[gorogue]

I'm really interested in learning how to play go, but I don't really know how I can make any progress. I learned the rules a couple of weeks ago and have been practicing life and death problems on goproblems.com and playing some games on KGS. Every time I play, I get crushed by what seems to be the weakest players on the site. I think part of the problem is that I have no idea what the general principles guiding my play should be. It seems that I'm making what are obviously stupid moves that are strategically bad a lot of the times and people take advantage of them easily (unless weak players on KGS can easily calculate dozens of moves ahead?). I also play chess, and in addition to working on tactical puzzles, there were some basic strategic ideas that allowed me to play a reasonable game when there wasn't a clear way to checkmate, win material, etc. but other than the opening idea of "corners, sides, center" I have no clue what I should be doing (I don't even really know how to apply the "corners, sides, center" idea...). I guess I'm just wondering how I can get a "feel" for the game and improve. Thanks!

[Bonobo]

Hello Gorogue, and welcome here

Have you worked through The Interactive Way To Go?

I’m not sure, but I think that after doing this one could be around 28-25 kyu (more knowledgeable folks please correct me if I’m wrong about this).

Cordially, Tom

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Oh, and don’t let it drag you down if you lose many games in the beginning, (I think ~50% loss is normal anyway against peers ) just choose the lowest rank available at any Go server and play different people at about your rank … you’ll soon see that it goes the other way ’round, too.

</edit>

[Bill Spight]

I'm really interested in learning how to play go, but I don't really know how I can make any progress. I learned the rules a couple of weeks ago and have been practicing life and death problems on goproblems.com and playing some games on KGS. Every time I play, I get crushed by what seems to be the weakest players on the site. I think part of the problem is that I have no idea what the general principles guiding my play should be. It seems that I'm making what are obviously stupid moves that are strategically bad a lot of the times and people take advantage of them easily (unless weak players on KGS can easily calculate dozens of moves ahead?). I also play chess, and in addition to working on tactical puzzles, there were some basic strategic ideas that allowed me to play a reasonable game when there wasn't a clear way to checkmate, win material, etc. but other than the opening idea of "corners, sides, center" I have no clue what I should be doing (I don't even really know how to apply the "corners, sides, center" idea...). I guess I'm just wondering how I can get a "feel" for the game and improve. Thanks!

You do not say what size board you are playing on. It is easy to get swamped on a 19x19 board. There are a number of things that you can do. One is to play with a proper handicap, one that gives you around a 50-50 chance of winning. For instance, with a 9 stone handicap you play 9 stones on your first move as Black. (There are set patterns for handicap stones, but you and your opponent may agree to let you play them anywhere.) Another is to play on a smaller board, such as the 9x9, or even smaller. Games are quicker, and require fewer handicap stones to make an even game. Another is to play the capture game, where the object is to capture a stone. On a small board that also makes for a quick game. You can handicap it by requiring White to capture more stones than Black. You can then move on to capture-2, which requires capturing two stones to win, then capture-3, and so on. The capture game on small boards is actually more strategic than regular go, which is highly tactical on small boards. The strategy is like go strategy on larger boards. Capture-2 is more like regular go than capture-1, capture-3 is even more like regular go, etc.

There are strategy problems on goproblems.com, and Sensei's Library has a number of good pages for beginners.

Good luck!

[SoDesuNe]

How did you learn chess? Learning Go is pretty much the same.

Books are your easiest bet: I like "Opening Theory Made Easy" and the first two "Graded Go Problem for Beginners" to start off.

Regarding the opening on a very, very (very!) elemental level: Place stones on the third and fourth line (19*19 board) and not too close to each other; you want to have as many outposts as possible. Generally don't attach to opponent's stones when you want to attack.
The rest is keeping your stones alive and capturing your opponent ones - for the beginning.

[Aidoneus]

As another new Go player (and former chess player), I share your difficulty in learning positional judgement--or maybe what Go players call direction of play. All of my problem collections just left me mystified about where to play after the first few moves. Let me suggest a couple free resources that I believe have helped me:

1) For a general notion of play in the first 1-20 or so moves, Yilun Yang's Fundamentals of Go. A sample pdf, covering Big Opening Moves, is available at http://www.slateandshell.com/pdf/Fundam ... 0Pages.pdf

The book is on my short list for purchase.

2) For how to make "good shape"--which seems as fundamental to Go as development toward the center is to chess--Charles Mathew's Shape Up! is described at http://senseis.xmp.net/?ShapeUp (I got a pdf copy with a subscription to Gobase.org, but several Go sites carry pdf copies--presumably with the author's permission.)

This book is highly readable.

3) Nick Sibicky has a series of excellent Go lessons uploaded to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/nicksibicky. He places a great deal of emphasis on creating big boxes (moyo or frameworks) with his beginners.

4) Perhaps River Mountain Go, http://senseis.xmp.net/?TaijisBooks, which is aimed as a study guide, in two parts, for 30-8k.

In any case, good luck and maybe I'll run in to you on kgs once my classes end next week.

P.S. If you are not independently wealthy, don't neglect your campus or public library!
If you are patient, you can request inter-library loans for many titles before deciding to buy.

[gorogue]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies! Part of the problem I don't really know how to approach go even though I've played chess before is I played chess a lot when I was younger, so when I started playing again a few months ago I already had some experience to draw on. I don't really remember how I learned it! Go is a completely new game for me.

[daal]

Simply put, you are losing because:

1. Too many of your stones are getting captured.
2. Your opponent is getting more territory than you are.
3. While trying to prevent 1. you are allowing 2 and while trying to prevent 2. you are allowing 1.

Lets look at them in order.

1. If your stones are getting captured, it is often because you are not recognizing the weaknesses in your groups. Weaknesses can be all sorts of things, such as cutting points or shortages of liberties. You may not recognize these weaknesses now, but as you see your opponents exploiting them, you will start to notice them ahead of time, and soon you will see the same weaknesses in your opponent's groups. This gets better with experience. Play more games, do more problems.

2. If your opponent is getting more territory than you, this may be because you are letting him. Some ways that you might be doing this are: Letting him secure an area while attacking one of your weak groups, letting him take the active role by assuming that where he's playing must be the most important area, letting his framework become solid territory. Go is a fight. If you don't strike back, you will be beaten.

3. The relative strength of groups plays a big role in go, because a strong group can apply pressure to a weaker one and gain an advantage. Because both strength and pressuring are advantageous, you might find yourself trying too hard for one or the other. If you try too hard to make your groups strong, you may be wasting stones. By defending a group that is not in danger, you are giving your opponent free moves elsewhere, and since both players use an equal number of stones, this efficiency-gap can make a huge difference. If on the other hand, you try to hard to pressure your opponent's groups, you may find yourself with too many weak groups yourself. The key here is to strive for balance.

Determining whether a group is "strong" or "weak" can be quite subjective. If your opponent does not have the ability or knowledge to recognize an opportunity to do damage, is the group really weak? There is a huge amount that a beginner does not know and does not see, but it's all there on the board to be discovered. Play more. If you enjoy it, you'll find that you want to learn more - and you will.

[Aidoneus]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies! Part of the problem I don't really know how to approach go even though I've played chess before is I played chess a lot when I was younger, so when I started playing again a few months ago I already had some experience to draw on. I don't really remember how I learned it! Go is a completely new game for me.

Not to overwhelm you with suggestions but...you might like the youtube discussion by the Romanian pro Catalin Taranu, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuGtN9 ... 6D92DFAA27, in which he gives a very detailed multipart discussion of his choices for the Fuseki (opening) of his game versus Ilia Shikshin. (And definitely look up Sibicky's sandbagger games on youtube!)

[gorogue]

Hey, thanks for all of the help! I'll be working through some of the resources posted on here.

[Tim C Koppang]

Hey, thanks for all of the help! I'll be working through some of the resources posted on here.

Keep with it! It wasn't too long ago that I was a beginner. I've played literally hundreds of different board games, and so I like to think of myself as someone who can pick up strategies easily. Even so, I think there's a certain learning "hump" with Go that you have to work past. Once you are able to get a handle on some basic strategies in the game, you'll find that you start to make progress more quickly.

[oca]

In this proud land we grew up strong
we were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail

no fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
but no one wants you when you lose

don't give up
'cos you have friends

[Inkwolf]

A couple of other suggestions: if you go to the beginner/teaching section of KGS, you can often ask for a teaching game from a more experienced player. They will be able to give you some practical, hands-on tips.

Also, watching other players play can give you an idea of good general play, as well as being pretty exciting at times. You can join in and watch almost any game in progress in KGS.

[gorogue]

A couple of other suggestions: if you go to the beginner/teaching section of KGS, you can often ask for a teaching game from a more experienced player. They will be able to give you some practical, hands-on tips.

Also, watching other players play can give you an idea of good general play, as well as being pretty exciting at times. You can join in and watch almost any game in progress in KGS.

I've heard that KGS is a great place for new players. I have been trying to use it, unfortunately it has been incredibly buggy and I've had to constantly force quit it (I use a macbook pro). You'd think there would be more places to play online easily. Chess had tons.

[EdLee]

it has been incredibly buggy

Could you elaborate ?

[gorogue]

it has been incredibly buggy

Could you elaborate ?

Sure. I actually started a topic asking for help in the KGS forum: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10272