Pro vs amateur

[Krama]

I only wonder why I can't play moves like that,

Have you ever asked yourself this question in any field other than Go ?

No not really, but I don't see why this would be relevant.

[EdLee]

No not really, but I don't see why this would be relevant.

Because it may provide some context. To yourself, and to this discussion.

[emeraldemon]

These don't have commentary but:

1) Last year Lee Sedol played a jubango against the new American pros (who are essentially amateurs), the match was stopped after Lee won 5 straight games if I remember correctly, some of the games are even and some are at 2 stones. The sgfs are in this thread:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =13&t=7750

2) The Fujitsu cup, back when it was running, had amateurs from the Americas and Europe play in the first round, often against strong 9d players. Because it was a big tournament, the pros certainly wouldn't risk losing to them (I don't know if an amateur ever made it past the first round?). For example here's Jiang Weijie against Fernand Aguilar (need to log in to go4go).

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/26827

[Krama]

No not really, but I don't see why this would be relevant.

Because it may provide some context. To yourself, and to this discussion.

I am sorry, I see that you are trying to start a philosophical discussion here, which I am bad at. I simply don't understand stuff that you are trying to say unless if you give me examples or use logic.

[leichtloeslich]

I am sorry, I see that you are trying to start a philosophical discussion here, which I am bad at.

How about internet-sarcasm?

Look at this pianist:

Why can't I, who has devoted half an hour each Wednesday to practise the piano for about a year and even read "Chopin etudes for dummies!", why can't I play like that?

It simply eludes me.

[gowan]

These don't have commentary but:

1) Last year Lee Sedol played a jubango against the new American pros (who are essentially amateurs), the match was stopped after Lee won 5 straight games if I remember correctly, some of the games are even and some are at 2 stones. The sgfs are in this thread:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =13&t=7750

2) The Fujitsu cup, back when it was running, had amateurs from the Americas and Europe play in the first round, often against strong 9d players. Because it was a big tournament, the pros certainly wouldn't risk losing to them (I don't know if an amateur ever made it past the first round?). For example here's Jiang Weijie against Fernand Aguilar (need to log in to go4go).

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/26827

I think it was in the Fujitsu Cup that Aguilar actually defeated two 9p players in even games in the tournament.

Around 25 years ago some strong Chinese pros were touring the USA playing simultaneous teaching games. Jiang Zhuju (Jujo) was one of the pros, then 8p but fresh from defeating five Japanese top players in a row in the China-Japan Super Go. He announced that the proper handicap between pros 5p and up and amateurs was 9 stones minus one stone for every dan rank of the amateur. So a 1d would take 8 stones, a 6d 3 stones, etc. He managed to defend those handicaps in simultaneous play. Another point: this was at a time when there was less rank inflation.

Amateurs generally really don't have a clear idea of how strong top pros are. Quite a few years ago Kobayashi Koichi, then arguably the top pro player in Japan, played a series of games with 1p players sponsored by Igo Club magazine. There was one-game kadoban, no komi, so each game changed the handicap by one stone. The 1p players started off playing just black but Kobayashi managed to force them down to 3 stones before the series ended.

[EdLee]

No not really, but I don't see why this would be relevant.

I simply don't understand stuff that you are trying to say unless if you give me examples or use logic.

Examples: Olympic atheletes, top professional musicians (see leichtloeslich's video clip), Wimbledon tennis players,
professional Formula-1 drivers, master carpenters, surgeons, professional fishermen, commercial plane pilots,
Swiss watch makers, deep sea divers, chemical engineers, architects, opera singers, etc. (The list goes on and on.)

It's very difficult, almost impossible, to imagine that this is the first time ever in your life
you've noticed that some other people possess knowledge and skills that are far superior to yours in certain areas.
Or have you ?

Follow-up question (perhaps the heart of the matter):
would it surprise you that professional Go players
would fit into the above list ?

[hyperpape]

Ed Lee: literal minded much? (And my friends would tell you that it's pretty remarkable to have me call someone literal minded...)

[EdLee]

Hi hyperpape. "Literalist." Please take a number.

[Krama]

EdLee, yes professional go players do fall into that category.

Are you all trying to say that I expect this extreme results without really working hard?

I think of it as a hobby and spend 10 hours per week playing with it, pros think of it as their job and spend 10 hours per day working on go?

[Mef]

Mh, maybe this is something unique to go culture, but in any other game a result where the pro would not beat the amateur would be considered ridiculous.

It's the level of beating that comes into play. The pro will win, that's almost for sure. He just isn't likely to play for the largest margin.

I think for most competitive activities you will find a continuum of players that tends to blur the amateur/pro divide. The public at large tends to be shielded from this unless they go out of their way to follow the sport. There's no question that basketball has players who join the NBA and make an impact immediately (the corollary is that there must be some amateur players performing as well or better than some professionals). Likewise in golf the line between weak pro and strong amateur can be highly blurred.

When we hear "pro vs amateur" outside of go what we might be thinking is "random guy of the street vs Roger Federer" (embarrassing mismatch) but the reality is much more like "Top collegiate athlete vs. #235 on the ATP tour" (much closer to parity)

[EdLee]

yes professional go players do fall into that category.

Are you all trying to say that I expect this extreme results without really working hard?

Hi Krama, if you already knew that Go pros fall into that category, then, your original question:

I only wonder why I can't play moves like that,

Was it rhetorical ? Or, were you genuinely trying to find an answer ?
As hyperpape pointed out, I took it as a literal question.
And what I subsequently wrote was not just philosophical,
but a start to help answer your question.

[xed_over]

I only wonder why I can't play moves like that,

Was it rhetorical ? Or, were you genuinely trying to find an answer ?

So now we have to specify if our questions are rhetorical or not?

[quantumf]

I only wonder why I can't play moves like that,

Was it rhetorical ? Or, were you genuinely trying to find an answer ?

So now we have to specify if our questions are rhetorical or not?

Not sure if I should answer or not...

[oren]

Does anyone have any clue where I could find a lot of amateur vs pro games?

I'm not sure anyone brought this up.

http://www.eurogofed.org/cego/

CEGO is a 2p from China training Europe's top amateurs. The games are interesting to look through.