Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

EdLee · **#61**

oca wrote:

"Miai" is very special to me, as it was my first post on this forum.

Nice!

You can also think in terms of follow-ups:
if your move has only one good follow-up, that's nice (better than none);
if your move has two good follow-ups, that's better (already miai idea);
if it has three or more good follow-ups, congrats!!

EdLee · **#62**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hi oca, after :w6:

, W has two good follow-ups: (a) and (b).
W can start to make a base with :white:

(a), or
W can start to make a base with :white:

(b) --
both are good follow-ups for W.
Whether B approaches :w6:

from the top or from the bottom,
W has a good reply.
We consider (a) and (b) miai for W.

EdLee · **#63**

oca wrote:

Even if most of the time I'm only using it to it's most basic form (kosumi connection)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . a X . . . . $$ . . . X b . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yes, follow-ups: (a) and (b).
If :white:

(a), B has the follow-up :black:

(b);
if

(b), B has the follow-up :black:

(a).

Look for good follow-ups.

Mike Novack · **#64**

oca wrote:

Mike Novack wrote:

I ofen play against igowin on iphone. I set the compteur to it's maximum level (3kyu) and with 19x19, I start to lose at 5 stones handicap...

I also like to play even game on 13x13, that fit well with the time I have in the train...
I lose most of the time, either I'm just to small (3 to 5 pts) or if I try to be more agressiv, I usually lose them all :blackeye:

BUT I still won 3-4 games... so I know I can beat him :rambo:

a) Well an iphone is a communication device, not much "crunch" power. But if it is powerful enough to give you trouble at five stones, you should be able to learn a lot from it << the PC version of this program would be about 1 dan KGS on a modest PC and about 3 dan on a top of the line workstation >>

b) Try to work your way down from five stones to three. I'd think that enough of a goal for the immediate future.

c) But remember, losing by 3-5 stones does not necessarily mean you are close to dropping a handicap stone. If the computer program considers itself safely ahead it will play safe to ensure victory even if that costs some of the margin.

skydyr · **#65**

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote:

"Miai" is very special to me, as it was my first post on this forum.

Nice!

You can also think in terms of follow-ups:
if your move has only one good follow-up, that's nice (better than none);
if your move has two good follow-ups, that's better (already miai idea);
if it has three or more good follow-ups, congrats!!

I've heard a heuristic before that a candidate move to invade should have at least 3 good follow-ups.

oca · **#66**

I just added a "summary zone" on the bottom of the first post.
viewtopic.php?p=163715#p163715

oca · **#67**

Game #4 has just began...
http://online-go.com/game/605761

Abyssinica · **#68**

Just as a thought experiment for non-standard handicap placements, let's take an amateur 7d and an amateur 13k and give them this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 19 stone game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do you think it would go down? (I am aware any handicaps after 9 tend to get out of hand.)

oca · **#69**

Sometimes, (for instance http://online-go.com/game/605761 - move 120) I feel I need that one to win ;-)

...

oca · **#70**

Try #4 - "The Big Square" just completed...

Illluck won by quite a lot

(and that may even be worst for me as he was kind enougth to let my bottom left group live at least twice... :blackeye:

)

226 moves (243 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+39.5 (45.5 - 6)

Summary (on first post) updated with the full game.

I feelt like in the first game, very not easy for me to use the handicap stones...
The first move that I missed was black 27... I think the joseki is more to atari the other stone by playing R2 instead of P4...

oca · **#71**

Just a quick approximative one...

Code:

----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/02_borders_and_tengen.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/03_standard_9_stones.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/04_big_square.sgf'
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : COUNT MOVES

766 moves
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : MOVE STATISTICS

WARNING :
More a toy then a serious analysis tool...
This is just a prototype, the result is still very... approximative...

                  black   white
                  -----   -----
          Hoshi :     1       0
         Sansan :     2       0
         Tengen :     2       0
         Komoku :     1       0
         Kakari :     0       0
           Nobi :    99      91
         Kosumi :    43      45
           Hane :    59      76
     Ikken tobi :   114      88
     Niken tobi :    57      48
        Kogeima :    64      40
         Ogeima :    29      15
    Daidaigeima :    13      13
      Cross cut :     1       1
           Peep :     6      19
            Cap :     2       1
   Shoulder hit :     1       6
          Tsuke :     7      10
           Bump :     1       0
            Cut :    11      19
 Empty triangle :    14      10
  Full triangle :     8      13
           Turn :     4       3
    Bamboo join :     0       0
    Table shape :     7       2
    Tiger mouth :     0       4
        Ponnuki :    12      24
 Tortoise Shell :     2       4
   Elephant eye :     5       6
          Crawl :     4       7
         Atari* :    42      44
     Connection :    46      25

=============================================================
Not identified :
Black : 27
White : 41
----------------------------------------

First, my tool just don't fully work... so take it with A LOT of care...
Ponnuki, peep and cut are interesting through...

Bonobo · **#72**

oca wrote:

[..]

Code:

----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/02_borders_and_tengen.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/03_standard_9_stones.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/04_big_square.sgf'
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : COUNT MOVES

766 moves
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : MOVE STATISTICS

WARNING :
More a toy then a serious analysis tool...
This is just a prototype, the result is still very... approximative...

                  black   white
                  -----   -----
          Hoshi :     1       0
         Sansan :     2       0
         Tengen :     2       0
         Komoku :     1       0
         Kakari :     0       0
           Nobi :    99      91
         Kosumi :    43      45
           Hane :    59      76
     Ikken tobi :   114      88
     Niken tobi :    57      48
        Kogeima :    64      40
         Ogeima :    29      15
    Daidaigeima :    13      13
      Cross cut :     1       1
           Peep :     6      19
            Cap :     2       1
   Shoulder hit :     1       6
          Tsuke :     7      10
           Bump :     1       0
            Cut :    11      19
 Empty triangle :    14      10
  Full triangle :     8      13
           Turn :     4       3
    Bamboo join :     0       0
    Table shape :     7       2
    Tiger mouth :     0       4
        Ponnuki :    12      24
 Tortoise Shell :     2       4
   Elephant eye :     5       6
          Crawl :     4       7
         Atari* :    42      44
     Connection :    46      25

=============================================================
Not identified :
Black : 27
White : 41
----------------------------------------

[..]
Ponnuki, peep and cut are interesting through...

Agreed.

Greetings, Tom

oca · **#73**

Bonobo wrote:

Seinsei’s Library wrote:

Sometimes the term kogeima (or small knight's move) is used [..]

Greetings, Tom

I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...

Bonobo · **#74**

oca wrote:

I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...

Mh… perhaps really check http://senseis.xmp.net/?keima, maybe reconsider? But I’m far from being an expert …

Greetings, Tom

oca · **#75**

Bonobo wrote:

oca wrote:

I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...

Mh… perhaps really check http://senseis.xmp.net/?keima, maybe reconsider? But I’m far from being an expert …

Greetings, Tom

oh... yes... well... hmmm.. :study:

I really don't know... actually

skydyr · **#76**

oca wrote:

I feelt like in the first game, very not easy for me to use the handicap stones...
The first move that I missed was black 27... I think the joseki is more to atari the other stone by playing R2 instead of P4...

The closer the stones are to the center, the more you need to know about using influence to wield them effectively. On the other hand, when you have stones on the third line, you don't have influence, really, and may as well just have reverse komi. I think that the star points are one of the easiest points to learn to use influence from, because you concede the least amount of space underneath them for white to work with while still being high enough to be influential. If they were 5th line stones, for example, white is more able to afford to scoop out territory underneath and trust that the remainder won't be enough for black.

Edit:
Also, the big square feels slightly overconcentrated to me. Is tengen really necessary with it, for example?

shapenaji · **#77**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I will now mirror every move, how does white win?

skydyr · **#78**

shapenaji wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I will now mirror every move, how does white win?

shapenaji · **#79**

skydyr wrote:

cyclops · **#80**

shapenaji wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I will now mirror every move, how does white win?

You have a mathematical proof that black wins? If so, how many initial stones in the center will do?

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

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