If you were in this position, what would you play? I've always played A, and I'm wondering what the merits of it are. As far as I know, it pushes above white's junction line as well as possibly defends against h3 and discourages the high approach on the right. I've also always considered B and C, but I have no clue what is the better of the moves, or if there's an alternative to these three.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . W . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . c . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My first thought would be to invade at C17. White has made a symmetrical position radiating out from the upper left. The invasion is very big and forces White to choose which side to defend on. Normally Black can anticipate ending in sente and therefore getting to play first between the two moyos anyway.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I also considered this, but I felt that white might do some variation to get sente or the double hane, and I think I'd have to protect the ponnuki I get out of that.

Here is a heuristic you can use to compare such plays. It is not so good if one of the plays is sente, but that is not the case here.

Assume that one player gets one of the plays (or in the vicinity) and the other player gets the other (or in its vicinity). That is, treat the two plays like miai. Then compare that position to the one that is the other way around. Which do you prefer?

If the two plays were equivalent miai, you would not prefer either, but if they are not equivalent, then this comparison should help you see which is better.

In this case in the top right the two players will not play on the some point, so it is a good example of the idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This way?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Or this way?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can also make comparisons with a play in the center. A center play is certainly playable in this type of position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Off center
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a thought, as relating better to the Black stones on the third line that tengen would. FWIW, it forms a square with the marked stones. (Tengen might be a better move for White. )

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

P9 the normal continuation for the chinese opening if white doesn't reduce it first.
It will increase the lower side moyo considerably and reduce the chance of white invading the lower right corner.
Also it will protect the weakness around R12 a little bit and afterwards b becomes a good follow up.

White may gain sente but both of whites corners are still open while the lower side of blacks territory becomes really secure. My instinct tells me the position would be then good for black.

_________________
Magics way up the hill (personal study journal)

C17 was also my first feeling. Maybe your experience gave you different feelings about it.
So what are you going to do about it?

I considered leaving c17 availible and either: 1.Getting it when it becomes big enough or 2.Getting free sente. Obviously the later I wait the less #2 is worth. Now I know that the normal 3-3 joseki leads to sente for the invader, but I thought the person I was playing (Who is 3k and is overly agressive ) [Also this is where the question arises since I have seen this situation more than once], would pick some variation where the invader ends in gote, or double hane. I know the double hane variation leads to a ponnuki for black, but I always feel I cannot tenuki away from that ponnuki. I feel it needs to have a defending move since it's behind enemy lines.

♫ Feelings ♫

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

What about P4 on the premise that white cannot finish the top left in one move? I forget what the specifics of P4 were though.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

P4 kosumi looks funny to me.

Abs, what's wrong with a ponnuki and defending it ?

I think your move in the game was alright. It isn't a move I can say for sure is wrong, but it does seem like it is impacting black's formation as a whole. So, I consulted my Chinese Opening book and it looks like Kato Masao can suggest a better course of action.

In Kato Masao's book on the Chinese Opening he says that the move before this one is when white needs to reduce black in the lower right immediately. He says the situation is urgent. Your opponent apparently disagreed with the 9 dan professional on this matter. Kato recommends a, b, or c to reduce the formation from the fifth line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Chinese Variation - Kato recommendations
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a b . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering that white ignored the urgency of the lower right, I'd recommend that you defend the lower right in a fashion consistent with the principles of the Chinese Opening (so not a direct enclosure).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c My recommended move for this situation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . B a c , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Low Chinese is all about provoking your opponent to play an unfavorable approach to the 3-4 stone. This move still leaves that as an option, but would make the resulting approach move very painful. You could also play at 'a', but I don't like the double 3-space relationship it forms on the bottom.

I think the suggested move at 'b' is also possible. It does help the lower right, but it does little against the first two reduction moves that Kato Masao recommends against this formation. For this reason I chose the marked stone.

Loons suggested something similar in this part of the board. I think the kosumi at 'c' is also playable, but it doesn't do a great job of defending weaknesses in the bottom nor does it offer to have black build on as large of a scale if black is able to get the move at 'b'. Still, I can't really disagree with the move since it does defend the urgent part of the board.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Technically it's the Low chinese + Kobayashi, and the normal move against the kobayashi probably still fits within the trap that the low chinese is trying to create. No one has mentioned Kobayashi yet, so that makes me curious.

It seems to me the bottom right Chinese enclosure must be more interesting, since it has a defended friendly corner above it and a kobayashi left of it, while the kobayashi has white left of it.

Notwithstanding I think this board is usually reached from Chinese.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Well, there are a few reasons for that. First, the Low Chinese is older so this variation was being played before Kobayashi popularized his namesake fuseki. Second, as Loons said, the position is usually reached from the Low Chinese - normally white would just approach the Kobayashi corner with the two-space low right after the formation is made. Third, I didn't even consider the fact that this was a Kobayashi formation until you mentioned it.

But I do find this interesting. Both the Kobayashi and Chinese fuseki center around trying to get your opponent to approach your corner so you can attack the approach stone. The trick with the Kobayashi is not to play a standard approach move as you will be severely attacked thanks to the influence from the star point stone. The trick with the Chinese formation is that you can't approach too soon or your opponent will get too much compensation.

So I think that is why Kato Masao says the lower right is so urgent for white to do something about in this situation - even if he wasn't thinking about the Kobayashi aspect directly. You have this combination of two openings that focus on how the lower right will be played. The first player to get a move there will clearly have an advantage as they get to dictate the flow in this part of the board.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Let's have a look at the real world. Working with the GoGoD database in SmartGo Kifu (I am traveling and am cut off from my beloved kombilo!), we can find 31 examples of the position below. It is rare because the marked play on the upper side is rare in professional play. Currently White almost always plays into the corner at 'a' and historically the slide at 'b' has always been the main line by a wide margin.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are four games that continue with the 2-3 exchange below. In all cases White played next at 4. White 2 makes the left side less urgent for both sides so, relatively speaking, the bottom right is more urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are ten games where White plays 2 high instead of low. This makes the situation on the left side more urgent. Sure enough the results are mixed. In four of the games (one is an amateur game) White continued with four here. There is also one game where White played at 'a' instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are four games where White continued on the left side. In two games White played on the star point similar to the OP. In both cases (one is an amateur game) Black invaded at C17 and White blocked at C15.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In one game White played 4 one line higher as below. Here Black exchanged 5 for 6 and then invaded in the upper left corner. Interestingly White blocked at D17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In one game White played 4 one line below the star point. In this case Black switched to the upper right with 5, White refused to answer and played 6 in the upper left. The interesting exchange of 7 and 8 followed before Black attached in the upper left with 9. White haned at 10.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . 7 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . 8 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finally there is one 'in between' game where white played 4 as shown below. The plays at 5 through 7 followed and then White attached in the lower right corner at 8. Black haned at 9.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Chinese Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . 4 5 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So if we look at professional practice, I think we have to conclude that you can play pretty much whatever you like.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Abyssinica, was this post prompted by Shawn's thread? At first I assumed they were from the same person. My post viewtopic.php?p=165181#p165181 is relevant.

A few more points: c6 is low, q14 is high, d10 is close and high, r9 is far and low. This makes quite some difference to the follow up to the one space jumps in those areas. The first is what happens if the opponent answers the jump (usually this is a good exchange for the jumper but still it might be the biggest point on the board). Note i'm considered each area locally for now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This way?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's answer at f7 has a thinner connection to the 3rd line c6 than black's does to fourth line q14 (black is happier to answer). But looking at d10 it's a bit too close, though does help alleviate the thinness. r9 to o13 has some shape problems (q10 can be annoying later).

But because of d10 white probably won't answer as black's follow up at d7 is not so good now.

Also Bill's 2nd diagram with white playing f5 is a bit slack as white would likely play g6 there to get ahead. Something I am thinking is that d10 would be better further away at d11 if white gets this sort of development or else black can try to make it overconcentrated with this semi-joseki technique I like (I just chose black 1 as shimari to focus on the left side):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Me being too clever?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 3 . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Maybe yes as white can play 10 not a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O O . 0 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 6 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway... Going back to the original question one very nice thing about the 3-3 (apart from the lack of a weak group) at top left is if white follows the usual joseki you get sente and can use that to reduce the white moyo direction of the 3-3 wall: i.e. if he blocks the top side you could either m17 (probably too greedy in fact) or n15 (or m15); if he blocks the left side then play the f5 or g6 jump.

As for tengen or nearabouts I don't really like those sort of moves. That might be a fault of mine though as weak players tend to like them much too much and you rarely see them in pro games so I tend to be rather dismissive of them as wishy-washy, but perhaps pros have the selection bias that they won't allow the game to become one where it is a good move as then it is too good (or there aren't many pro mutual moyo games these days).

And if I were to add a move to the lower left, it would be simple q5 shimari, not n4 (bad IMO) or p4 (maybe ok IMO).

My understanding (with a little kombiloing to check) is that p9 is the point when you have one of the chinese openings with k4 a bit closer to the 3-4 corner (then reinforcing corner would be overconcentrated), with k4 that far both p9 and a corner move like shimari or kosumi are played.

You'll find the game in my study journal, but it's interesting that I'm not the only one who's created this board position in a game.

Yeah, I'm also enjoying the discussion of what to do next in this similar position