Capturing races

[Aidoneus]

Some useful resources I have found on the web:

Big Eye Liberties: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BigEyeLiberties

Shared liberties and groups with eyes (lots of other instruction by Weiqi master!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZHv3NW ... _cbV13p4Cg

Malaysia Weiqi Association (Go Lessons): http://mwagolessons.wordpress.com/table-of-contents/

More basic is Nick Sibicky's lecture Fighting 101: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtPtonZGnJY

I know that Joaz Banbeck has a wonderful collection of links for L19 (exclusively for internal links, yes?) starting at http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=11&t=667

I thought that I might start a thread for some external resources. In addition to helping other (poor?) beginners, I am hoping that other players may add more resources to help me.

[RobertJasiek]

Malaysia Weiqi Association (Go Lessons): http://mwagolessons.wordpress.com/table-of-contents/

Mistakes on those pages:

- "A semeai is a situation whereby two opposing groups": More than two groups are possible.
- "2. Always fill in outside liberties first": wrong.
- "3. A group of stones that has one eye will beat the group of stones that has no eyes": wrong.
- "As a general rule, the bigger the eye you have, the better because bigger eyes has more liberties inside. [...] Therefore, in a capturing race situation, try to make as big an eye-space as possible.": wrong. (It is right only for eyes with certain additional properties.)

[Bill Spight]

In general I think that people should study a broad variety of topics. That said, I think that capturing races make an excellent topic for beginners to study. For one thing, as the dame get filled towards the end of the game, opportunities to make capturing races emerge.

[Aidoneus]

Malaysia Weiqi Association (Go Lessons): http://mwagolessons.wordpress.com/table-of-contents/

Mistakes on those pages:

- "A semeai is a situation whereby two opposing groups": More than two groups are possible.
- "2. Always fill in outside liberties first": wrong.
- "3. A group of stones that has one eye will beat the group of stones that has no eyes": wrong.
- "As a general rule, the bigger the eye you have, the better because bigger eyes has more liberties inside. [...] Therefore, in a capturing race situation, try to make as big an eye-space as possible.": wrong. (It is right only for eyes with certain additional properties.)

Rules are useful for beginners, like me, even if experts can find plenty of exceptions. At least, a common observation by many instructors in many different fields is to learn the rules first and then learn by experience when they don't apply. A process that might be termed mastery...

[RobertJasiek]

It is even better to have rules that specify when they are applicable. Beginners looking for basic rules only can use such starting with a "Usually,". E.g., "Usually, approach from the outside first". It does not work for an eye versus no eye; counting liberties or reading is necessary there! So what a beginner might learn is: "An eye can, but need not always, help." "The size of an eye can, but need not always, be decisive."

[DrStraw]

It is even better to have rules that specify when they are applicable. Beginners looking for basic rules only can use such starting with a "Usually,". E.g., "Usually, approach from the outside first". It does not work for an eye versus no eye; counting liberties or reading is necessary there! So what a beginner might learn is: "An eye can, but need not always, help." "The size of an eye can, but need not always, be decisive."

An overly complicated rule, even if only a rule of thumb can, but need not always, cause beginners to abandon the game.

[RobertJasiek]

"Count liberties!"

Is that simple enough for your taste?

[Bill Spight]

Rules are useful for beginners, like me, even if experts can find plenty of exceptions. At least, a common observation by many instructors in many different fields is to learn the rules first and then learn by experience when they don't apply. A process that might be termed mastery...

By rule they eat,
By rule they drink,
Do all things else by rule,
But think.

-- Once said of Methodists

[Aidoneus]

I surrender. I thought that I would start a thread on useful web resources for beginners, not a debate on the usefulness of general rules.

[oren]

I surrender. I thought that I would start a thread on useful web resources for beginners, not a debate on the usefulness of general rules.

Don't worry. Most do appreciate it. You just have to ignore RJ a bit on these things.

[Unusedname]

I surrender. I thought that I would start a thread on useful web resources for beginners, not a debate on the usefulness of general rules.

These are pretty much the resources I used too when I first started learning about Capture races. The first time I just looked at the diagrams and didn't really understand anything.

But by the tenth time or so I started to get an idea.

If you make another thread for useful resources, I request one on reduction moves!

[RobertJasiek]

You just have to ignore RJ a bit on these things.

Webpages with correct information are useful - such with wrong information are counter-productive. Listening to me helps distinguishing both, and hopefully wrong information will be corrected. (I have not checked the youtube pages.)

[DrStraw]

Webpages with correct information are useful - such with wrong information are counter-productive. Listening to me helps distinguishing both, and hopefully wrong information will be corrected. (I have not checked the youtube pages.)

I have to strongly disagree with this. Correct information is relative to strength.

A web page with all the thousand or so variations of the taisha would be correct information for a 5 dan but for a 10 kyu all that is needed is four or five variations. The same is true for similar issues where to give all the correct technical information for a 5 dan would overwhelm the 10 kyu and so a page aimed at the 10 kyu should tell them that the only correct information is the subset given and leave it understood, without stating, that exceptions will be learned as ability improves.

I have been teaching this game for 40 years, with some success, and I have always said "this is how you should play", not "this is how you should play now but as you get stronger you will learn exceptions." I have also been teaching university level mathematics for 37 years with the same approach. It is implicit that as you improve you understand more and can absorb the exceptions. But if you clutter your mind with exceptions too soon you cannot see the trees for the forest.

[Aidoneus]

I surrender. I thought that I would start a thread on useful web resources for beginners, not a debate on the usefulness of general rules.

These are pretty much the resources I used too when I first started learning about Capture races. The first time I just looked at the diagrams and didn't really understand anything.

But by the tenth time or so I started to get an idea.

If you make another thread for useful resources, I request one on reduction moves!

But you are much stronger than me! Nevertheless, perhaps some of the articles at 361points.com are worthwhile (or not, Robert Jasiek?), such as this very short article Expand or Invade?: http://361points.com/articles/9/1/

I also have read many articles at Senseis, such as Reduction is worth as much as an invasion, http://senseis.xmp.net/?ReductionIsWort ... AnInvasion
I never could find the reference from that article to some article by Bill Spight on this subject, though.

Somewhere I read or heard that counting was very important before deciding on invading--if ahead on the count and in any danger of losing the invasion stones to just go for a reduction as a practical matter. Of course, I don't think that I can count well enough to decide in any relatively close game. Counting is one of numerous skills I need to work on!

But why don't you tell me what you have found that was helpful?!

[Bill Spight]

If you make another thread for useful resources, I request one on reduction moves!

But you are much stronger than me! Nevertheless, perhaps some of the articles at 361points.com are worthwhile (or not, Robert Jasiek?), such as this very short article Expand or Invade?: http://361points.com/articles/9/1/

I also have read many articles at Senseis, such as Reduction is worth as much as an invasion, http://senseis.xmp.net/?ReductionIsWort ... AnInvasion
I never could find the reference from that article to some article by Bill Spight on this subject, though.

This is what the page referred to. ( Click on the Discuss Page button.) http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=127

As you can see, I hardly said anything profound.