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 Post subject: Re: Capturing races
Post #21 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:03 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
The proverb in Japanese is me ari me nashi, or, with a slightly free translation, eye vs. no eye. It is just a phrase. It refers to this kind of position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | X . O X . .
$$ | X O O X . .
$$ | X O . X . .
$$ | X O X X . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]


White is dead by me ari me nashi.

At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is. :)

And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | . . O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]


:)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]


If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?

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 Post subject: Re: Capturing races
Post #22 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:43 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Me ari mi nashi ???
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O X . |
$$ | . X . X . . X X W W . B O B O . . O . |
$$ | . . X O X X . W W W B B O . O O O . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . X X W . B . O O B . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . X W W W B B . B B O O . |
$$ | . X . O O O . X X W . . B . B O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O X X W W B O B . . O . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X W . B . B B B B B |
$$ | O . . X . . . O X X W . B B B B . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X W W B B O O O O O . |
$$ | X O . O X . . O X W . B O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X W . B O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X O . X . . O X W . B O . O . X X O |
$$ | X O O X O X . O X W . B B O O O X O O |
$$ | X O X . . X . O X W B . W X X X O O O |
$$ | . X X , X . . O X W W W W X O X O O X |
$$ | . X . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | . X X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: Capturing races
Post #23 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:50 am 
Honinbo

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Aidoneus wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]


If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?


Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you. :)

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Capturing races
Post #24 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:22 am 
Lives in gote

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Bill Spight wrote:
Aidoneus wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]


If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?


Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you. :)

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?


Sure, White d, Black a for an eye and now Black owns the shared liberty at c.

I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.

I love doing tesuji. I had no trouble doing the problems included with SmartGo at first, but now I am up to those graded 8k, and my success rate at reading the full answers is down to about 1/3 or 1/4. I probably recognize the key first move better than 1/2 the time, though I am often unable to visualize the correct response to some defense, or even completely overlook some defense. But I am nothing if not persistent! Thank you for your feedback. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Capturing races
Post #25 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:43 am 
Honinbo

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Aidoneus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?


I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.


Sorry, I was fishing for a simpler answer. White is dead. :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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