Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Simba · #1

Hi all,

I was playing a game recently and the following situation came up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What is white's best way to proceed? I can't find any professional games at all with this move, and it's not mentioned on EidoGo or Josekipedia. The usual move is at F4, so I'm thinking one of the following is key:

1) Black no longer is quite so solidly threatening E6 to seal white in.
2) Black's jump is further, so white should be able to exploit it in a way different to J3, because this lacks the impact of H3 undercutting the F4 stone threatening the attachment at E3.

Thoughts? Would much appreciate any strong player's input

.

Uberdude · #2

I don't think this problem is so hard that low dan players or even kyu players are unable to make a valuable contribution.

Javaness2 · #3

What is wrong with continuing the standard joseki as if your opponent really had played at F6?

topazg · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like after a "standard" :w2:

, Black owes a move to prevent White @ a or b - I would have guessed that's probably enough?

moyoaji · #5

I'm curious, why did you feel that this move was unsatisfactory? This move is the most common joseki continuation if black plays the standard knight's move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems like if white plays solidly then he can aim at the weakness in black's shape caused by the long knight's move. It doesn't seem like black is threatening to take too much on the bottom because the long knight's jump is not very secure. Later on, the move at 'a' will destroy whatever black has just built.

I may not be a high dan player, but I have learned that if you want to punish a joseki deviation then you have to know for sure that the move is a mistake. This move seems a little fast, but it doesn't seem like a mistake unless white is strong in the area. The move is played as a part of many 3-4 joseki. I don't see why it would be a mistake to play it here, but I can see that it would be uncommon.

Just looking at this joseki from a basic level, black's stones are separated and the usual idea is to strengthen one side and then you have time to help the other. In this case you are leaving a weakness behind, so if you now take the time to help your pincer stone then white can turn back and counter-attack you. However, if you need to play faster so as to disrupt whatever white is threatening to do on the bottom of the board, then I guess you could play this move.

jug · #6

I found one game (probably an amateur game(?) between a 7d and 5d) at move #111

Uberdude · #7

jug wrote:

I found one game (probably an amateur game(?) between a 7d and 5d)

Yes, supertjc is Tan Jia Cheng, one of the top amateurs in Singapore.

Knotwilg · #8

I'm only a lowly 2d but immediately thought of this sacrifice tactic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 9 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 0 X 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can play B7 at W10 too but this leaves more aji.

Dusk Eagle · #9

I don't like that too much, I feel like after :b11:

you've mainly just helped black fix his weak points without getting much yourself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black was forced to play :b11:

at 'a' and then white could take :b11:

for himself, I would like it, but that's not the case. I prefer topazg's diagonal move.

Knotwilg · **#10**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 2 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b 1 X O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After

the White group is settled, especially with b becoming sente. Now, what's Black's pincer doing? And what's the original large knight's move doing in that empty triangle?

I'm not saying this is the best White can get but ending up with a stable group in Black's corner, be it in gote, is a good result to me.

ez4u · **#11**

The only example I find in GoGoD...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Fu Chong (White) - Zhu Yuanhao; China Weiqi League 2007-05-24 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . 8 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . 7 . 5 X . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#12**

Knotwilg wrote:

I'm only a lowly 2d but immediately thought of this sacrifice tactic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 9 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 0 X 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can play B7 at W10 too but this leaves more aji.

Yes, that was my original reading, hence my post suggesting E6, which makes this :w2:

more severe. I think Black has a more interesting resource though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White cannot now descend without being rather painfully disconnected, and pulling back with "a" doesn't leave the position all that cheerful after Black simply connects underneath. White can still settle easily enough in the corner, but then perhaps simply "c" is better?

Knotwilg · **#13**

You say "White cannot now descend without being rather painfully disconnected" but this reverts back to my diagram. Either the sacrifice-settle maneuvre must be refuted or the aji when Black increases the capture. Another possible critique is that White doesn't need the sacrifice to call that group "settled".

topazg · **#14**

Knotwilg wrote:

You say "White cannot now descend without being rather painfully disconnected" but this reverts back to my diagram. Either the sacrifice-settle maneuvre must be refuted or the aji when Black increases the capture. Another possible critique is that White doesn't need the sacrifice to call that group "settled".

Does it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 O 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Knotwilg · **#15**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 9 X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 0 3 X O X 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yes it does. This is the "increase capture" line I was talking about. And this is the line I'm thinking of instead of yours.

topazg · **#16**

Mmm, I'm still finding it hard to feel the love in that one

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 1 O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 3 . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That still feels like a huge amount of thickness to give Black ...

Knotwilg · **#17**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 O O . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 1 O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 3 . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think we should call Black's position "a huge amount of thickness". It's a moderate amount of territory, plus some influence to centre and side, but rather lumpy at that and moreover White got in place a forcing stone there.

In this variation, White has sente and can use it to attack the original pincer stone. Also note that the three captured white stones have still 3 liberties and Black's lump has 5. The aji is not negligible. Think for instance what will happen if White closes in at a.

As said, I'm not too sure that this is the best way to play for White but I am definitely not in love with Black's overconcentrated position and aji.

topazg · **#18**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, it's not without compensation, it just doesn't feel enough to me - can White not get a better result immediately just with this though?

PS, on closing at "a":

Dusk Eagle · **#19**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 'a' for 'b' is a large probably-sente move for white later $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 2 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These three all end in white sente (in the first one I added a black extension, feel free to consider it somewhere else). The bottom two may be classified as joseki. I think I prefer the bottom two over the top one, but it's not a huge difference and YMMV. I agree with you that black's pincer and empty triangle are located in less than ideal positions. Anyway, I think it's useful to compare these results.

Knotwilg · **#20**

I agree with DuskEagle.

topazg, I also agree White's light play may be better than my proposed sacrifice tactic.

On the closing in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X X 5 6 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the sequence I was thinking of. Black has two liberties left. He will of course survive, but the pressure is too high to call that group thick.

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