Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:34 am

Mmm, I'm still finding it hard to feel the love in that one

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 1 O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 3 . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That still feels like a huge amount of thickness to give Black ...

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:47 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 O O . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 1 O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 3 . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think we should call Black's position "a huge amount of thickness". It's a moderate amount of territory, plus some influence to centre and side, but rather lumpy at that and moreover White got in place a forcing stone there.

In this variation, White has sente and can use it to attack the original pincer stone. Also note that the three captured white stones have still 3 liberties and Black's lump has 5. The aji is not negligible. Think for instance what will happen if White closes in at a.

As said, I'm not too sure that this is the best way to play for White but I am definitely not in love with Black's overconcentrated position and aji.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:58 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, it's not without compensation, it just doesn't feel enough to me - can White not get a better result immediately just with this though?

PS, on closing at "a":

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:09 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 'a' for 'b' is a large probably-sente move for white later $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 2 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These three all end in white sente (in the first one I added a black extension, feel free to consider it somewhere else). The bottom two may be classified as joseki. I think I prefer the bottom two over the top one, but it's not a huge difference and YMMV. I agree with you that black's pincer and empty triangle are located in less than ideal positions. Anyway, I think it's useful to compare these results.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:33 am

I agree with DuskEagle.

topazg, I also agree White's light play may be better than my proposed sacrifice tactic.

On the closing in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X X 5 6 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the sequence I was thinking of. Black has two liberties left. He will of course survive, but the pressure is too high to call that group thick.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:40 am

I like this for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 7 5 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The big question is whether black needs to compromise at 9 which is pretty awful or can fight by extending at 10. He can't double hane but white does need to crawl on the second line a lot to get enough liberties to win the semeai. A white stone on the third line towards the right would make this easy for white.

P.S. in topazg's sequence Black could just take a liberty for 5 and then the white stones only have 2 liberties.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:43 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X X d . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X . c O O X a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That was the sequence I was thinking of ... although Black has to make the "a" / "b" exchange first or play "c" earlier instead of D1 (Edit, yeah, Uberdude picked this one up already, this seems to make work to split nicely enough) ... White doesn't really have to play "b" here, "d" looks a lot better (but if he does, White is dead in the corner).

Actually, that

is generally rather awkward for White on the aji front. Frankly, the whole thing is a giant mess on both sides, I'm sure a stronger dan can find a tighter route through this

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:47 am

I don't think you need the a for b exchange as black...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X . . O O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:55 am

Dusk Eagle wrote:I don't think you need the a for b exchange as black...

Hehe, reading fail ... you're quite right, so I think Black gets to kill White if White tries to close in this way?

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:03 pm

Me too I misjudged the value of Black's angle play at the first line, which is funny because my squeeze tesuji starts with the same move

Anyway, I didn't want to suggest White should attempt to shut in those stones right away but rather that they are not as thick as they look because of the aji.

In the meantime I go with Uberdude's diagram. The sacrifice is too brutal after all.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:14 pm

topazg wrote:so I think Black gets to kill White if White tries to close in this way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 5 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't read this carefully, but white seems to win this semeai. But these are all crude early exploitations of aji so it would be better to play more subtle moves aiming at these kind of things after.

Knotwilg wrote:In the meantime I go with Uberdude's diagram.

But I think it might be a dream without white support on the right (closer than the corner):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . z . X 6 4 2 3 5 a c f . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 7 9 0 4 6 b d e . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems black can block at e and white f doesn't capture anything thought there's a lot of grovelling on the 2nd line; also black has z which might even live and then the other white group can get chased.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:06 pm

Uberdude wrote:I like this for white:
$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 7 5 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X 6 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 7 5 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The big question is whether black needs to compromise at 9 which is pretty awful or can fight by extending at 10. He can't double hane but white does need to crawl on the second line a lot to get enough liberties to win the semeai. A white stone on the third line towards the right would make this easy for white.

P.S. in topazg's sequence Black could just take a liberty for 5 and then the white stones only have 2 liberties.

Why assume that the play at

signals that the left side is more important than the bottom and that therefore Black will continue with 'a'? Wouldn't the opposite tend to be the case? Isn't it natural to treat the marked stone lightly? It looks impossible for White to capture it efficiently after already playing three stones to separate Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:05 am

ez4u wrote:Why assume that the play at signals that the left side is more important than the bottom and that therefore Black will continue with 'a'? Wouldn't the opposite tend to be the case? Isn't it natural to treat the marked stone lightly? It looks impossible for White to capture it efficiently after already playing three stones to separate Black.

$$Bcm1
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X b . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X b . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't assume that, just if black chooses to defend the lower side he has no good way to do so due to the weakness at b so I'm happy as white. Now I'd expect white to pincer the black stone at 4 (or maybe 1 above which invites black to run out or else make a more efficient capture). If black makes a checking extension above 4 white can kill off the lone stone (but yes that does seem a bit inefficient hence the idea of playing one further). But in all of this if black does run out the lower white group is a lot stronger and can settle in the corner due to the thinness of the big knight move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 7 . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 0 X 6 9 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not saying you should do 6 right away (e-f first?), but this back-up plan means white doesn't fear black splitting so much. With the small knight

can extend at 10 so white can't settle like this. And yeah there is also clamp of 7 at 9 maybe better and then we get Knotwilg's sacrifice but white 2 ends up duff. Edit: actually white should answer the clamp with his own counter clamp at 3-3 and he gets the corner again so clamp is not an improvement for black

This reminds me of this joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 6 . 1 . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And this variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . 6 . 1 . . . . . . 7 . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

for when black wants to extend further with 7 (often as pincer of white a approach to black b). It does leave a weakness but it's not as bad as this one as white 4 is further away.

Also I had another idea of maybe white wants to use the thinness in another way, namely this 2 here as black needs to defend at 3 and then white can pincer, probably far and high at a, to make a big running fight (or pincer first is better style as depending on if/how black jumps out you might use 2 or kosumi or something else).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:18 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think It's worth considering this, in the standard joseki, black can hane at "a", but here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

with "c" as a very nifty way to protect the cut at "b" should black try to live in the corner.

So, black can't do this, which means he/she concedes the corner whole, and either plays as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . d . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

leaving behind terrible shape and a great striking point at "d"

or else black pulls back gives white the easy descent.

Life In 19x19

Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)

Re: Joseki Refutation Help (Mid-High Dan Please)