#236 emerus vs Loons

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:23 am

@Ed

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:41 am

Uberdude wrote:this 8 for white is better for libs: white makes the eye and black can't approach from the left and wins the race.
$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 9 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 7 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . X O 4 3 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X 5 X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 0 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . 9 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 7 X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O . X O 4 3 X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X 5 X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 0 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Hmm...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . 7 X . O 3 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O 6 O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O X X O 5 O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O 8 X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 O 4 X O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

emerus · Post by **emerus** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:05 am

I resign. Black took advantage in every exchange. The problems obviously started from :w18:

. Black did owe a move on top and should be attacked but my shape was extremely poor. I was trying to be severe and thought contacting would be cool but the calm keima or 'a' are the "only way". Black c16 was just icing on the cake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . 8 a . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The local loss was significant but white could play on without rescuing those stones immediately. :w32:

to

is the kind of dirty play I'd make in a timed game, but in hindsight, it was somewhat disrespectful and against the spirit of this game format. Sorry. :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm41 Trying to make a mess of things. is the only move. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X O . . X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good game Loons.

Anyways, I read the entire game out and analyzed for possible traps and mistakes for black and here's what I came up with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Impossible $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 4.31% chance of winning $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . 4 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:01 pm

Thanks for the game. I think I must have overplayed a little on top, I'm interested to see EdLee's and Uberdude's analysis.

Actually I'm really worried about how thin black is on top considering white's move made miai for life. Should I have played 53 at M15?

If you want another game let me know.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:19 pm

Loons wrote:I think I must have overplayed a little on top
Should I have played 53 at M15?

Hi Loons, maybe you under-played on top ( :b31:

);
your

kosumi-hit was also my choice. But I dunno.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:47 pm

Uberdude's sequence was what I read for top in both cases (including the .... one liberty ahead).

Thanks much, emerus, EdLee, Uberdude.

schultz · Post by **schultz** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:03 am

Loons wrote:Uberdude's sequence was what I read for top in both cases (including the .... one liberty ahead).

Thanks much, emerus, EdLee, Uberdude.

And thanks to you too, Loons (along with all those already named).

It was a fun game to watch, and interesting to see the discussions back and forth. Sad to see it end early, and would look forward to a second. "subtle" hint hint.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:34 am

Haha, yeah, I liked reading me, emerus and EdLee reading slight variations on similar themes ; I guess we're all similar strengths.

In the game I didn't read EdLee's capture sufficiently to play it and so felt it was risky ; he's just correct it was a better move I think.

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:57 am

Interesting game!

Personally, I would have struggled on with white. White is behind, but there's loads of aji everywhere. This is my preferred line, which emerus rejected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mission Impossible? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 5 4 6 . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 . X . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black will nervous about abanonding the group - his moyo is not yet 100% secure so the game could get close quite quickly. I've shown one line for him to move out - there are others. White takes some territory, secures a group and makes a start on staking out the top side.

Now, White has 10 points lower right (at least), 25 points top left (more if he cuts the two stones) and komi. The lower side is unclear but white-ish and should yield more points.

Black's only territory is his moyo. It looks likely that he will need at least 60 points from it, maybe more. This may be non-trivial. For example, carrying on from my earlier diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mission Impossible theme tume.mp4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O a X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . 2 . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . 3 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O X X . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has various reduction techniques to consider. I have no idea which is best - the idea in the diagram has the downside that the downside of a in sente is limited for black.

However, black will need a very good attack white's group to keep balance. So maybe this is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mission Impossible theme tume.mp4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X 7 . . c . . . . | $$ | . O . O a X O . O X . 3 . 9 X d . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . 4 5 . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . 6 0 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . 2 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O X X . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it gives up a lot of points. (Black needs 10 or white can puch through). After the c-d exchange, a is no longer sente for black.

White's original estimate of 25 points at the top is more like 40 points. I think white may be leading in this diagram.

Here is another invasion/reduction idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mission Impossible theme tume.mp4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O a X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O X X . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This may come under quite a sever attack, but if it survives the game may be playable for white.

In fact, white 1 in the very first diagram I gave is so big that black could seriously consider this line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Alternative $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X O O X X . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . X . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This line makes black less dependent on the moyo, although it may be slack. I am not very good at counting moyos, so my natural prefrence is this. The single black stone in the middle retains a lot of aji.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:23 am

Yeah, as black played the greedy hane at l18 that moyo has lots of problems around the cut and if black tries too hard white could make a reversal. I was wondering about trying to find some clever move like q17 which black can't answer normally because to do so would allow l17 to work. Problem is black has the choice to give up l18 if the outside aji is too bad, so that's why I wondered if cutting before taking the 2 stones to probe his intentions first is good or not. But when black played the checking extension on the right side I would just have answered with approach rather than immediately trying to attack the top black group (though emerus is right the knight's move is a better idea than his heavy ugly shape pushing from behind into hane at head of 2).

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:56 am

q17 was my first thought as well. But, as you said, getting the timing right to ensure W gets enough is very difficult.

So I abondoned that line of thought. The second reduction approach keeps all that aji open, so may be the better of the two.

Life In 19x19

#236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons

Re: #236 emerus vs Loons