Hi oca,

Another question/problem with your variation
is — this is a standard bad habit.
Better is connect directly. See post 26.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Oh... yes, I start to understand where the problem is...
so back to the original game 1 :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm72
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . . . . . X O X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . , . . . X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . . . . . X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . O a . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . b . . . . . . . . . @ . |
$$ | . . . 3 . O X . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I was thinking was good move as it secured territory in the bottom... more and more I understand secured... pretty much nothing

I mean I played thinking it was sente as white needed to reply with D2, what he did. But then what... If I want to secure territory in the bottom, I still need to fix the other side with something like which is gote I think... but my opponenent replyed with that so that I can keep sente... but what if he played at at "a" ? Then that would be a very different game.... And sure, even after , there are still good ways to reduce that bottom like you suggested for example with that peep at "b"...

So given all that, I understand is very questionable...
and that tenuki would have been bigger here as once again, didn't secure the whole bottom... (if that was the case, I assume that it would be a good move, but not in this case)

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Just something else about 73: it can remove your own liberties and become an empty triangle later if white cuts. If black doesn't have the ladder (or doesn't want to give a ladder breaker) then he can extend at 75 rather than ladder at 76. Then if white crawls black 77 is a pleasing hane at head of 2 shape: this fighting is comfortable for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm72 73 tenuki
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

If you get the block in sente then you can't hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm72 75 tenuki OOOPS!
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X 5 7 8 . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O X 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

So black can only extend which could still be ok for him but it's better to be able to hane and reduce white's liberties and get your stones up off the 2nd line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm72 75 tenuki
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X 5 7 . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O X 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

So far on game 1 :

Things that I understand :

is thin. Jump 1-space to O4 is better.
-> ok just a wrong click.
Ridiculous. Huge thank-you move. W should just block S5.
-> I agree

equally ridiculous. There is only one move here.
-> ok (still need to apply)

bad habit. Correct local move is just connect E2.
bad habit. You should have tenuki'd.
same bad habit as .
same bad habit as .
-> got it (still need to apply)

bad shape: W hits the vital point, the elephant's eye.
very bad. See Post 5 again, same note again.
-> I recognize these boken shape, still need to find better answers to avoid.

Still to check :

- does not work. The move is S4. Study this contact fight.
- strange shape. What's your plan if W ataris Q17 ? (Did you read W Q17 atari ? )
- to is not small, but wrong technique.
Maybe wrong plan: what are you trying to accomplish here ?
Can you find the correct move, instead of your ?


So let's contine with the first one : :b17: does not work. The move is S4. Study this contact fight.

That was allready difficult for me, here are a few ideas, starting with move 17 at S4

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

What is the purpose of s4? That should help you find the answer to "then I don't really know... that looks complex to me.."

• is a bad habit: better to connect directly at (a).
• Locally, better for B to fix the cut directly with :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . 2 . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Hi oca, additional info:

We compare the two moves: connects solidly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B W connects solidly with
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . W O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

...versus the descend — bad habit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Bad habit
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . 2 . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Later, this could happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 3 ko threats
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . X . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 O X . . .
$$ | . . 6 5 4 O 3 . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation: ko threat
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . X . .
$$ | . . . 1 . O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

And the bad habit descend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Bad habit
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X . . . ,
$$ | . . . O O X . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . 3 O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Hi oca, the above is one of your variations in Post 44. We start here.

Variation 1. Find a that makes a Broken shape for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation 1.
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]

Variation 2. Find a :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation 2. Find a
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]

Variation 3. Find a :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation 3. Find a
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X 2 . |
$$ , . . X . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]

Hi Uberdude,
I think the purpose is to separate white...




Hi Edlee,

Here are my variations :

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Hi oca,
Good, you found one broken shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation 1a
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X 3 . |
$$ , . . X . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Another possibility, also broken shape for W —
did you see this tiger's mouth ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Variation 1b
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 O 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Hi oca, one of your variations —
This makes a bad shape for yourself (the empty triangle) :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X . 3 X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Did you consider this jump ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X 3 . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Hi oca,

Another of your variations — you said this "fails, too [for B]":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . 7 5 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X 6 4 X O X . |
$$ . . . . 8 3 2 O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

In fact, this result is very good for B.
This atari is very painful for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . 7 5 1 X . . |
$$ , . . X 6 4 X O X . |
$$ . . . 9 8 3 2 O O . |
$$ . . . c b a . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

If captures at (a), then ataris again (b) and connects at ,
making a bad shape for W.
If descends to (b), then at (c) is sente again.

B can simply connect with — the 2 stones are cut off
(broken shape for W) — very good result for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . W . W . . |
$$ . . . 3 X X X X . . |
$$ , . . X O O X O X . |
$$ . . . X O 2 O O O . |
$$ . . . . 1 O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

So is a bad move and bad idea for W.

Hi Edlee, thanks for your comments, I like both the tiger's mouth(post #50), and the jump (post #51), I also agree that the variation on post #52 is just fine for black... I just saw the ladder doesn't worked for black and missed that put the 3 white stones in atari which is nice for black...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Now about this one :

: strange shape. What's your plan if W ataris Q17 ? (Did you read W Q17 atari ? )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . 2 X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

well... that Q17 atari looks more dangerous then I though...

Here are a few variations :

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Played 5 more games since post #25.
I won them all so I'm back on 17k now.

Of all those games, the two last one were more difficult for me. I won both on time, against the same player.

I will call The first one The "Double 3-3 Invasion".
I tryed to play two variations, the classic one, and the double hane (as I wanted at least a corner for me)
I think I was not that bad in this one. espacially after



The second one is the "Double Takamoku" and here that went bad for me, I should have lost that one. I'm not very prod of my go here... and I don't know how at all how to play Takamoku... so when there are two of them, that's even worse

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Game 1: You played better than your opponent. What do you think of move 64?

Game 2: It was indeed worse as a game. Can you explain what you were thinking with moves 24, 28, 30, 32 and 34? How do you look at these now (sincerely, don't be critical because I mention them). This will allow us to give proper advice.

Cheers

Hi oca,

Game 1: you played well until — Misread ? Or bad habit ?

bad habit. What are you trying to accomplish with ?
You bumped your own head against B, you reduced your own libs.
After the game, did you look up some simple
josekis starting with ?

thank-you move.

???

Hi Knotwilg, well I was thinking that I needed that one to kill the corner but it was allready dead...



Here is the game2 with comments from move 13 to 52.

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Thanks! Self review is extremely important and very helpful for reviewers. We can draw a few lessons from this:

Game 1: revisit basic [sl=]nakade[/sl] like [sl=]farmer's hat[/sl], [sl=]almost fill[/sl] four stone eyespaces, ... Life & Death by Davies might be a good (re)read.

Game 2: seems like a lot of these moves were panic moves under time pressure, so ... allow yourself to play games with some less severe time limits. You should at least be able to get 10s per move.

But there's more under the surface here. Your say that you wanted to do something before it's too late. Well,

1) the board is big; if your opponent already has a strong structure somewhere, better play elsewhere. If it is weak, of course you can attack it
2) if you have decided an invasion is due, then don't try to save all the stones
3) When you "reduce a liberty" of a strong opponent group, you are actually removing your own. Better stay away from those stones and make a base for your own, or flee to the centre. This is why I didn't mention 26: it was a good, light escape (overall still too close to his strength but that's another matter)
4) aside from basic eye shapes you also need to relearn the basics of counting liberties. Although, you may know that but ...
5) You say you play "moves you know that don't work". This is of course a severe psychological issue, related to panic. I can only revert to my initial comment. Give yourself some time to verify if a move works. If you think it works, play it. If you think it doesn't work, then don't. It may cause anxiety, but still it will be better to go through the anxiety of the unknown than pursue the security of failure.

Looking forward to your next games!

Hi Edlee,

- I would say that is a "bad habit", in the sens that was a "try first and see later move".
I'm a bit experimenting if I can somehow "place a few stones that may play a role later".
But I have not that much success for now as that's more just wasting move... maybe I should just let that kind of experimentation for later and put a bigger focus on basics first, as their is still so much to do there...

and thank-you move. - Well I know one 3-3 joseki


but in the context of the game, that joseki didn't come in my head (the error was "404 joseki not found" maybe an admin may help here )... Separation of stones was also very present in my head too, but that move doesn't separate anything...

now about , I really understand that I didn't kill the corner because of my . I killed the corner because my opponent did a mistake... that lead me that point which is common to these two games :

I still play move "A" expecting the answer will NOT be at move "B" so that I can play move "C" which is so great !
then of course "B" is the reply and I must change my plan... flexibility is nice... but that's not flexibility, that's just having the wrong plan ...

Trying to win the review is also a bad habit so maybe I will stop here and try to apply...

So only two things for next game :

1) Stop to hope, when in doubt, play something "simple" with a direct excpeted result, not a fancy move that comes from nowhere (I think I can identify these situations where I play randomly... so... that will be intersting to see if that is really the case...)

2) Still focus on connection and separation but without that to become an obession so that I can try to have a "clame" judgement.

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216