Studying Go in China

[Abyssinica]

Forcing move gaining you something no matter what reminds me of an essay about the actual meaning of kikashi on a go blog I read a while ago.

[EdLee]

"A forcing move will gain you something, even if your opponent answers. A crude move won't,"

Hi Hushfield,

I'm not sure if Mr. Yan was speaking in Chinese, English,
or other languages during this review.
Did he actually use the English terms "forcing move"
and "crude move" ? Or are they an interpretation or translation
of what he said in Chinese ?

Perhaps another way is "good forcing moves," "good sente moves,"
"bad forcing moves," and "bad sente moves" ?
These seem more clear and unambiguous, to me.

A forcing move by itself seems 100% neutral to me.
Just like a sente move. It can be good for you, or bad for you.
If it's a good forcing move, you can consider to play it.
But if it's a bad forcing move, then you certainly don't.

A crude move, by definition, is not very good.
( In the English version of Ishida's joseki dictionary,
the equivalent term John Power uses is "vulgar," I think ? )
Also, a crude move can be either sente or gote, to me.
So to force the "sente" attribute to a crude move
also seems unnatural, IMO.

But thanks for all the photos and updates.

[Knotwilg]

The debate about what is a forcing move has been going on for a long time, also on Sensei's Library. We never fully agreed on the term but it seems that a forcing move and a thank you move (or crude move) are both sente but the first will leave you with some potential for later usage while the opponent merely got a cemented version of what he head already. The thank you move on the other hand gives the opponent something he wanted but didn't have yet (often a connection), while your gain is very small or even negative, such as the loss of a liberty.

The difference is of course subtle, otherwise it wouldn't be a topic. An example is the good peep versus the raw peep. The good peep exerts influence or serves as a ladder breaker, while allowing the connection is not a big loss because it was mentally accepted already. The raw peep allows a connection where a cut would have been very severe. Even if the cut wasn't possible right away, forcing the connection loses all potential and is not outweighed by the influence of the peeping stone;

[SoDesuNe]

Hushfield
I guess is not as good because it metaphorically bumps your (stone's) head against the wall (costing you liberties) and indirectly leading to a situation where you allowed your opponent to Hane at the top of two stones, which is bad shape.
If I'm not mistaken the "correct" way to cut here would be wedging at Q6 and then attaching at S6. It is also Sente because White's corner group still has to make life.

Forcing move gaining you something no matter what reminds me of an essay about the actual meaning of kikashi on a go blog I read a while ago.

I think you mean this from Antti Törmänen: http://gooften.net/essays/kikashi-taking-advantage/ ?

[Uberdude]

As well as Antti's post, I also recommend the book Beyond Forcing Moves, I wrote a little about it here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150.

[Buudesuyo]

I picked up shogi recently as well and to my surprise it is really interesting

[Ten]

That essay is badly outdated though—nowadays I see no need to explain kikashi beyond translating it as a "good exchange".

Hushfield
I guess is not as good because it metaphorically bumps your (stone's) head against the wall (costing you liberties) and indirectly leading to a situation where you allowed your opponent to Hane at the top of two stones, which is bad shape.
If I'm not mistaken the "correct" way to cut here would be wedging at Q6 and then attaching at S6. It is also Sente because White's corner group still has to make life.

Forcing move gaining you something no matter what reminds me of an essay about the actual meaning of kikashi on a go blog I read a while ago.

I think you mean this from Antti Törmänen: http://gooften.net/essays/kikashi-taking-advantage/ ?

[Bill Spight]

The debate about what is a forcing move has been going on for a long time

And the debate is not just among amateurs. A good contrast is between the styles of Sakata and Takagawa. Sakata tended to play kikashi early, while Takagawa tended to wait. Since they played a number of games you can see the clash of styles pretty well.

[Uberdude]

That essay is badly outdated though—nowadays I see no need to explain kikashi beyond translating it as a "good exchange".

Outdated in that it contains wrong information? It still seems excellent to me, and there wasn't much in the way of modern joseki/fuseki research in there that could have changed in the last few years.

Whilst I agree saying a move is a good exchange is a decent enough simple translation of saying a move is kikashi, I feel it is a more general term that loses some of the nuance. To me (and I bow to those like you or John Fairbairn with more knowledge of Japanese and go term usage) kikashi has the feeling of the kikashi-d player suffering (and often trying to resist, like you said in the article), and also kikashi is only for a single move whereas after a 20-move-long sequence resulting in big groups dying you could say "that was a good exchange for black". Also something like the black approach of move 5 in the mini-chinese opening could be said to be played because black views it as a good exchange for his framework (similarly to the approach in bottom left before making a chinese opening), but I wouldn't call that one move a kikashi. There's not enough feeling of your opponent being forced to defend what he had already committed to (and indeed white might not choose the gentle knight's move answer). But also it's not so unambiguous that that approach for knight's move is a good exchange and some of white's plans with dealing with the mini-chinese are trying to turn it into a bad exchange and make black regret it.

P.S. congratulations on making A class!

[John Fairbairn]

The debate about what is a forcing move has been going on for a long time

And is totally misplaced. That is the nub of the problem.

I've no idea who first used "forcing move" in English, but whoever it was he did a disservice to western players. I imagine it was borrowed from chess, but the meaning there has next to nothing to do with go. In chess you use forcing moves to restrict your opponent's replies, thus making deep tactical calculations easier. It's a way of pruning the tree, in other words.

In go, when a kikashi arises there will be nary a tree in view, nor even a shrub or a sapling. Rather than horticulture, the focus is on pennies and pounds. Taking care of one will ensure a supply of t'other.

A typical attribute of a go position is that there is usually more than one way to use a move. A good player will wait as long as possible before deciding which way to play. The better the player, generally speaking, the more possibilities he will see, and for a pro this often translates into waiting even longer than even a strong amateur expects, but at pro level there are considerations that may force an early decision. For example, the pro may sense that the game is on the cusp of a major fight from which it will be difficult to break off. He may run out of time to play the kikashi. Or the style of play of either player may be such as to tend to reduce the possible ways to use a move. So timing is always an issue.

But, no matter whether a player has played a kikashi early or late, what has he actually done? He has not reduced the opponent's options. It's not chess. What he has done is to "cash in". He has taken what Japanese refers to as the "uchidoku". He has taken the profit while it is available, and irrespective of how meagre it is, because he doesn't want to lose it by shilly-shallying.

However, what amateurs often overlook is that the profit can be measured in more ways than taking points. The reasons for a pro making a kikashi move are more typically to do with things like overconcentrating the opponent, settling eye shape, removing aji and other nebulous things (of course it can include taking points as well...).

Let us look in some detail at a Japanese definition to get a sense of what is in the (Japanese) pro's mind: 利かし: 現在先手で打てる手で、しかもなんらかのプラスにこそなれ、損のない手を、現に打っておくこと.

Doing a sort of explication de texte, we see that it mentions twice the fact that it is a move played "now" (現). This nowness is just what we associate with cashing in. It is a move that "can be played now in sente" (現在先手で打てる手). That is important because when we cash in we want to get profit while we still can - while we still have sente.

The final verb form used (ておくこ) implies that we have done and dusted. This isn't about the future. We've played our move and the various possibilities are now finished with. Again, this is associated with cashing in. We accept that we've withdrawn our investment bonds in favour of real wonga.

Another aspect of cashing in is that we don't want to lose what we already have, and we have this in the definition. It's a "move with no loss" (損のない手). In fact it's a little more than that. When we cash in we are nearly always doing that to secure a profit, however small, and this definition says the same thing: "(a move with no loss) -- indeed one with something extra" (なんらかのプラスにこそなれ).

Everything we need to know about a kikashi is there really. In practice there is a difficulty in that in Japanese it forms part of a nexus of related words (kikashi, kikaseru, kiki, uchidoku, kimeru...) and so we see various translations or even circumlocutions which contribute to a fuzzy picture. But the real problem is simply in the term "forcing move", with the connotations - appealing for amateurs but regrettably addling - of power and sente (and that too not in its proper sense - to too many people it just means getting a kick from "I made him answer").

My suggestion is that if you wish to study kikashi (and it's a hugely fruitful way to improve) you should set before you something solid and easily grasped, such as a tablespoon, a supply of poker chips, and a bottle of whisky or whatever you tipple.

Whenever you play over a game and come to a kikashi, if you think of the word "forcing", ding yourself on the head with the spoon. If you think of the word "sente", ding three times. (You won't lose the sente - it's implicit in the kikashi, but to learn you have to forget.) You could also try pricking your thigh with an awl, as in the traditional Oriental fashion and as used by the great Fujisawa Hideyuki, for example, but elf'n'safety considerations preclude recommending that.

But whenever you see the 'effect' (the kik- bit of the word) a pro kikashi has, cash in a chip for that side. As the game proceeds, you may see the supply of chips on one side grow larger than the other side's. When that happens, you will have a clear representation of the alarm that a pro feels whenever he has been kikashi-ed. And of course you will start to understand why comments about ostensibly subtle kikashi moves tend to loom large in high-level commentaries.

And every time you see a kikashi made and also realise the various options that have now disappeared, take a congratulatory slurp of your tipple.

If you eventually slide under the table, at least you will know that you now understand go much better.

[Bill Spight]

There is one kind of kikashi about which there is no debate, and that is the "while it is still sente" kikashi. A prime example is the kikashi before living, where you make a play which threatens to live big, and when your opponent replies, you make smaller life. The point being that if you make smaller life first, your play that is now kikashi is no longer sente. Failure to play kikashi first means a definite loss of points, the difference between sente and gote.

[SoDesuNe]

In the end asians really are naturally superior when it comes to Go. Not so much in terms of race but regarding their ability to read a language which does not confuse the aspiring Go player and teach him/her badly translated/defined concepts.

Learning an asian language gains two stones!

[Bill Spight]

In the end asians really are naturally superior when it comes to Go. Not so much in terms of race but regarding their ability to read a language which does not confuse the aspiring Go player and teach him/her badly translated/defined concepts.

Learning an asian language gains two stones!

I just look at the pictures.

[Hushfield]

Ed Lee: to answer your initial question: I don't speak a word of Chinese and any confusion caused by the things I write is the result of my inability to clearly reproduce the words of Yan Laoshi, after our translator has given us the gist of what was said during a review. The discussion was actually about when something is a crude move (the "suu sou" pointed out by often, one of Yan Laoshi's favourite phrases) or when a similar exchange might be a good move. I wrote "forcing move" because I thought "good move" would be somewhat vague and unspecific. I'll try to remember the semantic sensibilities of the online go community in the future.

I picked up shogi recently as well and to my surprise it is really interesting

To the admins: Buudesuyo is my former room mate here. He's an American go player that is known for trolling on boards both go (2-2 point approach, anyone?) and messaging. I don't know if he'll behave (rather unlikely, in fact), but maybe don't slap him with the ban-stick right away. Let's just hope he steps on a lego (nothing personal) and that will be the end of it.

Two of our fellow students (including Buudesuyo) left yesterday, and with them the more laidback attitude has gone as well. We're back to early mornings and heaps of go problems. We're currently enjoying a week of home study (which is why we're able to play another round of teaching games with Yan Laoshi). The two students that left got surprised by a tradition at the Yan house: your last game versus your pro teacher you always play on even. The look on their faces when they first heard this (as in, 1 minute before playing), was quite amusing.

I didn't find the time to post this earlier, but our last day of school, I finally got to play Zao Zi Yi, the 10-year old 5-dan go problem prodigy. I played him on two stones. I was really, really intimidated when playing him. I played a horrible game, and lost in under 50 moves.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[2]KM[0.50]
PW[Zao Zi Yi]PB[Hushfield]C[I played Zao Zi Yi today. He's a 10-year old kid and probably the strongest player in both schools run by Yan Laoshi (except for two 13-14 year olds who aren't here because they are taking the pro exam). I was slightly nervous and played a very, very bad game.]RE[W+Resign]
;B[dp]
;B[pd]
;W[pq]
;B[dd]
;W[qf]
;B[qh]
;W[of]
;B[nd]
;W[qk]
;B[oh]
;W[mf]
;B[ld]
;W[ok]
;B[mh]
;W[kf]
;B[jd]
;W[jh]
;B[lj]
;W[ll]
;B[jj]LB[kk:A]C[Hard to believe at move 20, but this is probably the losing move. There is a lot of aji, and the kosumi at A deals with this aji much better.]
;W[ni]
;B[nh]
;W[ki]
;B[lg]
;W[me]
(;B[md]C[This is not the correct place to connect. Connecting at A is better, because white can't do anything after pushing through. See variation.]
;W[ke]
;B[pg]C[Crude move.]
;W[pf]
;B[mk]C[This is probably the only correct option for black, and is also what Yan Laoshi suggested.]
;W[kj]
;B[ml]
;W[lm]
;B[mm]
;W[ln]LB[pn:A]C[Black should attack the three stones from a distance. I fantasized one more push to be sente, though, and lost Black's big chance for a reversal.]
;B[mn]
;W[pn]C[The slow move is instantly punished.]
;B[lo]
;W[ko]
;B[kp]C[The final losing move.]
;W[mo]
;B[lp]
;W[no]
;B[lk]
;W[kk]
;B[kl]
;W[jl]C[Black resigns.

I've been handling losses really well while I've been here, but this one still hurt quite badly. At times like that there's only one thing one can do. Take a walk.])
(;B[kd]
;W[md]
;B[mc]
;W[nc]
;B[oc]TR[nc]C[The marked white stone would look more at place on the set of the walking dead than on a goban.]))

Losing is quite all right, that's what I came here for, but this loss somehow managed to sneak past the good intentions for improvement. I was pretty upset with myself for playing like a kitten in a tiger's cage, so I got my music and went for a walk in the neighbourhood outside school. After approximately 20 minutes of cooling off (if such a thing is possible in 35° Wuhan summer), I came back to find Zao Zi Yi without opponent. I immediately sat down in front of him, put down my two stones and we played again.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[2]KM[0.50]
PW[Zao Zi Yi]PB[Hushfield]RE[B+0.50]
;B[dp]
;B[pd]
;W[pq]
;B[dd]
;W[qf]
;B[qh]
;W[of]
;B[nd]
;W[pi]
;B[qi]
;W[pj]
;B[ph]
;W[oh]
;B[qj]
;W[pk]
;B[ql]
;W[fq]
;B[cn]
;W[pl]
;B[qm]
;W[pm]
;B[qn]
;W[pn]
;B[ip]
;W[kq]
;B[iq]LB[jo:A]C[This move is slow. The kosumi at A achieves the same goal, while also reducing white's influence more.]
;W[dq]
;B[cq]
;W[ep]
;B[do]
;W[jo]
;B[io]
;W[in]
;B[hn]
;W[jn]
;B[dr]LB[hm:A]C[This is bad direction. Black should poke his head out at A. Yan Laoshi demonstrated this principle (we had no translator today) by playfully whacking someone on the head with the ruler he always carries around.]
;W[er]
(;B[cr]LB[qk:1][rk:2]C[This violates ko principles. Black should take first. That way white has to exchange 1 for 2 already, losing a ko-threat and making black stronger. Only when white takes back should black connect here. (See variation)]
;W[hm]
;B[gn]
;W[gp]
;B[go]
;W[eo]
;B[en]
;W[gr]
;B[hr]
;W[hp]
;B[hq]
;W[gq]
;B[ho]
;W[fo]
;B[fn]C[I preferred a wall without cutting points, but black should just have taken the ko first. Black is too strong for any cut to work.]
;W[fs]C[Black decides he doesn't have enough ko-threats at the moment and decides to leave the ko on the board for now. If the value of any move falls below 26 points, he should come back here to start the ko.]
;B[fc]
;W[lc]
;B[ld]LB[kd:C][me:A][og:B]C[A crude move. Black should kosumi at A, and look forward to the miai options B and C.]
;W[kd]
;B[md]LB[kc:A][le:B]C[Aiming at the cut at A, but another crude move. B would have better followups.]
;W[jc]
;B[lf]
;W[lh]
;B[ke]LB[og:A]C[This is small now. Should cut at A]
;W[je]
;B[jf]
;W[ie]
;B[if]
;W[he]
;B[hf]C[This push is one too many.]
;W[ge]
;B[jj]
;W[kg]
;B[kf]
;W[hj]
;B[hk]
;W[ij]
;B[ik]
;W[jk]
;B[jl]
;W[kk]
;B[gk]
;W[il]
;B[ji]C[Good for black.]
;W[gj]
;B[ih]
;W[fj]
;B[fl]
;W[qk]
;B[rk]
;W[qo]
;B[ro]
;W[rp]
;B[rn]
;W[qq]
;B[eq]LB[lj:B]TR[fj][gj][hj][ij]C[Black starts the ko, looking forward to use threats to attack the marked white stones and exploit the aji around B.]
;W[cd]
;B[ce]
;W[cc]
(;B[de]LB[ef:A]TR[fj][gj][hj][ij]C[I decide to play this move again, even though Yan Laoshi always points out a better nobi. That was the case here as well. So even though I was looking forward to the kosumi at A to attack the marked white stones on a large scale, there are better sequences than this. See variation.]
;W[eb]
;B[ef]
;W[cj]
;B[ch]
;W[dh]
;B[cg]C[Problem: White to play.]
;W[fh]TR[ge]C[This move both enlarges the eyespace and threatens to connect to the marked group.]
;B[ff]
;W[ci]
;B[ei]
;W[eh]
;B[fk]
;W[ej]
;B[bk]
;W[ck]
;B[bl]
;W[cl]
;B[bm]
;W[hh]
;B[fp]C[I judged white to be alive and there to be no bigger move than killing the group, so I took the stones. While there is less margin to play with now, black's lead has dwindled significantly.]
;W[qc]
;B[qd]
;W[rd]
;B[re]
;W[rc]
;B[qe]
;W[rf]C[Overplay by white.]
;B[pc]
;W[pb]
;B[ob]
;W[qa]
(;B[sd]C[This is not the right move. Jiao Zi Yi showed me the correct order immediately after I played it. See variations.]
;W[rb]
;B[og]
;W[ng]
;B[pg]
;W[nf]
;B[dc]
;W[db]
;B[fb]
;W[hc]
;B[bb]
;W[cb]
;B[bd]
;W[bc]
;B[be]
;W[ba]
;B[jr]LB[kr:A]C[Another loss in the endgame. Black should attach at A.]
;W[kr]
;B[ks]
;W[ls]
;B[js]
;W[lr]C[The endgame moves might not be in the right order. I can't recall and entire endgame in the correct order.]
;B[kj]
;W[lk]
;B[lj]
;W[ni]
;B[mk]
;W[kl]
;B[mj]
;W[gf]
;B[bh]
;W[bi]
;B[bf]
;W[mb]
;B[pf]
;W[oe]
;B[pe]
;W[oc]
;B[od]
;W[nc]C[A big loss for black. Black can live even if cut off, so this sacrifice makes the game very close, a bit better for white even.]
;B[ia]
;W[ib]
;B[ha]
;W[ja]
;B[gb]LB[fa:A]C[Not good. Should be at A.]
;W[hb]
;B[ga]
;W[rl]
;B[rm]
;W[ml]
;B[mh]C[This capture marks black's revival in the endgame. I was steadily losing points, but this somewhat reverses some of the earlier losses.]
;W[mi]
;B[mg]
;W[nh]
;B[li]
;W[mf]
;B[lg]
;W[ii]
;B[jh]
;W[nk]
;B[ai]
;W[ec]
;B[fd]
;W[aj]
;B[ah]
;W[bj]
;B[mc]
;W[nb]
;B[kb]
;W[kc]
;B[jb]
;W[lb]
;B[ka]
;W[la]
;B[ja]
;W[so]
;B[sl]
;W[sn]
;B[sm]
;W[sp]
;B[gd]
;W[hd]
;B[fe]
;W[gm]
;B[hl]
;W[im]
;B[fm]
;W[nj]
;B[hg]
;W[gg]
;B[ek]
;W[dm]
;B[cm]
;W[dk]
;B[el]
;W[dl]
;B[jp]
;W[kp]
;B[ac]
;W[ab]
;B[ad]
;W[ak]
;B[dg]
;W[eg]
;B[ed]
;W[sc]
;B[se]
;W[dn]
;B[al]
;W[em]
;B[fg]
;W[jq]
;B[ne]
;W[ea]
;B[me]
;W[fa]
;B[gc]C[I'm not 100% sure this was the final board position, but it was very close to this. We counted under the supervision of Yan Laoshi, and when we counted, it turned out black narrowly managed to hold on to a 0.5 point win.

I keep saying I'm here not to win but to improve, but this felt really, really nice after being destroyed by the same opponent in less than 50 moves. Some games can give you the feeling like you improved while playing it, and this is certainly the case for this one. I made a lot of poor shape moves, bad calls in direction of play and missed endgame tesuji. No doubt there is a lot of work to do. But I'll enjoy this as a small confidence boost in my training here.])
(;B[oa]
;W[sb]
;B[pa]
(;W[qb]
;B[sd]
;W[ra]C[Two points better than the game.])
(;W[ra]
(;B[qb]
;W[sd]C[Two points better than the game.])
(;B[sd]
;W[qb]C[Two points better than the game.]))))
(;B[be]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[eb]
;B[fb]
;W[da]
;B[ee]
;W[bd]
;B[eg]TR[fj][gj][hj][ij]C[This is where Yan Laoshi waved at the marked white stones and proclaimed a confident "Byebye!"]))
(;B[eq]
;W[qk]
;B[rk]
;W[dq]
;B[cr]))

Zao Zi Yi still overplays quite a lot (all the younger kids around here do), but his diligence in doing doing problems sure is paying off. A good reminder I should do some more myself. I'll upload my game with Yan Laoshi later today.

[SoDesuNe]

Hey, congratulations! 2H against a 5d is huge : )

By the way, I know the situation in your first game. There is a fight, we both hop a bit and suddenly my shapes start to crumble ^^ There are so many subtleties between a Keima, One-Point-Jump or Kosumi... and when to play which...

Let's just hope he steps on a lego (nothing personal) and that will be the end of it.

Ha ha ha, Starcraft 2 BM? =D