Yet Another Close Loss

[emeraldemon]

Have you tried asking in the L19 room? I will play you a teaching game

[Aidoneus]

Have you tried asking in the L19 room? I will play you a teaching game

I've never been in the L19 room! I would love a teaching game!! I'm available any day from 08:00-15:00 CDT (13:00-20:00 GMT) for a game. If you or anyone else (including other DDKs!) want to meet for a game, just pm me to set up a day and time so that I can arrange for my wife to go shopping.

Edit: BTW, I don't know exactly how teaching games work, but I have a Skype account if it would be helpful.

[Charles Matthews]

I would appreciate any criticism.

If you lose this game, it looks like it would be on the left-hand side. Here you are playing out miai on the bottom. Basically this is a premature decision. Fix up the left now, because there may not be a chance later.

Here it is, trouble.

You outnumbered White 3 to 1 on the lower side, but didn't gain sente. How did that go? is trying to get both sides of the miai but this goes at O2, making the White stones look like aji keshi. now has to be at P2, take sente and play around D9. needs to connect the ko and fight towards , but the position is already troublesome because you got spread too thin,

[Aidoneus]

I would appreciate any criticism.

If you lose this game, it looks like it would be on the left-hand side. Here you are playing out miai on the bottom. Basically this is a premature decision. Fix up the left now, because there may not be a chance later.

Here it is, trouble.

You outnumbered White 3 to 1 on the lower side, but didn't gain sente. How did that go? is trying to get both sides of the miai but this goes at O2, making the White stones look like aji keshi. now has to be at P2, take sente and play around D9. needs to connect the ko and fight towards , but the position is already troublesome because you got spread too thin,

Hi Charles,

Thank you for pointing out some of my mistakes. Perhaps it is time for me to go back and reread Shape Up! After learning the rules from Teach Yourself Go, I raced through Shape Up! and obviously didn't absorb everything that I could have from a more thorough study.

I shall ever endeavor to improve, though the results be ever so meager.

[Mike Novack]

Another possibility (at least worth trying)

Unlike may of these programs, even the "consumer version" of MFOG includes "time management". So for the MCTS levels of play, the absolute strength isn't what is marked (1 dan or 3 kyu) but varies with the amount of time and the hardware.

See what happens if you continue to use the 3 kyu level change the time control so the program has 60 minutes instead of 30. The point is that although likely to be only slightly stronger that increase might be from a largish reduction in erratic moves.

[Aidoneus]

Another possibility (at least worth trying)

Unlike may of these programs, even the "consumer version" of MFOG includes "time management". So for the MCTS levels of play, the absolute strength isn't what is marked (1 dan or 3 kyu) but varies with the amount of time and the hardware.

See what happens if you continue to use the 3 kyu level change the time control so the program has 60 minutes instead of 30. The point is that although likely to be only slightly stronger that increase might be from a largish reduction in erratic moves.

MFoG doesn't really use the time it has now! We never even get close to starting the 4 overtime segments that I set. (That it doesn't seem to use all of its time really surprises me! On the other hand, I'm used to chess time controls, which give a set amount of time to make a set number of moves, and I'm still not comfortable with Go time management.)

I tried setting it to 1 dan this morning and was lost (abandoned game) by about move 100 or so, even though I took a 9-stone handicap. I'm going to review Shape Up! and see if I can make better shape moves before trying 1 dan again. Also, I need to think more about playing multipurpose moves, rather than responding locally everywhere to MFoG. Thanks again for your advice.

[Mike Novack]

I tried setting it to 1 dan this morning and was lost (abandoned game) by about move 100 or so, even though I took a 9-stone handicap.

That is actually weird in a way. If "it's a game" when you take 5 stones against the 3kyu level it should be a game when you take 9 stones against the 1 dan level.

BTW, I also haven't seen it get into its extra time periods. But I think that is because it is trying to manage time so as not to get into time trouble too early. Or possible using as a factor how much time its opponent has. I have noticed that it doesn't always seem to use the same amount of time per move.

[Aidoneus]

I tried setting it to 1 dan this morning and was lost (abandoned game) by about move 100 or so, even though I took a 9-stone handicap.

That is actually weird in a way. If "it's a game" when you take 5 stones against the 3kyu level it should be a game when you take 9 stones against the 1 dan level.

BTW, I also haven't seen it get into its extra time periods. But I think that is because it is trying to manage time so as not to get into time trouble too early. Or possible using as a factor how much time its opponent has. I have noticed that it doesn't always seem to use the same amount of time per move.

Maybe all the extra stones are confusing me! Or, more seriously, I start following it everywhere and suddenly its disparate attacks have magically combined to cut me apart. I sort of noticed I was doing the same thing against 3 kyu, and I played much better after I jumped down to 6 stones and then 5 stones.

As for time management, please notice that in the game posted in this thread I only used 3:53 for the first 100 moves, but MFoG used only 0:46! At move 200 I had used 9:51, and MFoG had still only used 1:25.

Like I mentioned before, typically MFoG plays almost instantly, which puts me in 5-minute chess mode! (An old brain pattern from my chess club days.) I'll see if setting 60 minutes for the first control slows it down.

[EdLee]

Maybe all the extra stones are confusing me!

They probably are. One of the most valuable (and difficult) things we want to learn from handi games
is how to make good use of all the stones on the board.
( Actually, this is true all the time; but perhaps it's more pronounced in high handi games ? )

[ez4u]

IMHO you should not be using the program as an opponent. What's the point? You should watch the program's evaluation of the game (I assume this is possible in MFOG) and then explore the possible variations when you choose a move that it evaluates as poor. The program should be a teacher, not an opponent.

[Uberdude]

Aidoneus, why don't you play humans?

[Mike Novack]

As for time management, please notice that in the game posted in this thread I only used 3:53 for the first 100 moves, but MFoG used only 0:46! At move 200 I had used 9:51, and MFoG had still only used 1:25.

OK, this indicates a problem you have. Ignore for a moment how much or little time your opponent is using (except to notice whether in time trouble).

You aren't taking time to think. You are moving impulsively, not looking around. You have to try to find some way to break yourself of this bad habit of taking only 2-3 seconds to decide on a move. Probably not unrelated to the symptom you describe of "following".

And note that I have the problem myself and haven't yet found a solution. Still trying various things to see what might work. You might try things like sitting on your hands (getting them away form the mouse or touchpad if playing against the computer or an on-line human opponent and not having a stone in your fingers when playing against a human face to face. There are other things you might try. For example, set your time to 60 min and have a 10 second timer so you can practice not placing a stone till the timer dings.

<< For those suggesting human opponents, that isn't completely relevant to this problem. Got to learn to manage time according to one's own time, not how fast or slow the opponent moves. >>

[Mike Novack]

IMHO you should not be using the program as an opponent. What's the point? You should watch the program's evaluation of the game (I assume this is possible in MFOG) and then explore the possible variations when you choose a move that it evaluates as poor. The program should be a teacher, not an opponent.

It's more than possible with MFOG 12 and that is a very good suggestion. Because MFOG uses a go AI to construct a set of plausible next moves and then at the MCTS uses its MC algorithm to evaluate for which is best it is possible for MFOG to give a "go reason" for the move even if not why that reason is more compelling than the other options.

Try that mode? Turn on that option and/or explore the other options for teaching.

[Aidoneus]

IMHO you should not be using the program as an opponent. What's the point? You should watch the program's evaluation of the game (I assume this is possible in MFOG) and then explore the possible variations when you choose a move that it evaluates as poor. The program should be a teacher, not an opponent.

Playing ranked games preclude any help during the game. I do use its game score graph after the game to see where it thinks I went wrong. Perhaps I am deluding myself, but I think that the opportunity to play better players than me--even a computer--is helping me improve. (I haven't lost my first 100 games yet; heck, I haven't even played 100 games.)

Aidoneus, why don't you play humans?

Where? KGS seems to have very few DDKs. When I request games against anyone, I lose patience after about 5 minutes of staring at my screen. As I mentioned before, I may create another account and lie about my rank, say 8-9 kyu, so that I can get some games before my rank goes back to DDK.

I can usually get games at Tygem, though the skill of other 18 kyus seems to vary wildly. Even there, though, I sometimes get messages that no opponents at my (lowly!) level are available. Its hard to raise my rank at either site without getting games!

So, I like the idea of playing at KGS with its handicap system but don't have the patience to camp out waiting. (Plus, it's hard to avoid interruptions from my darling wife if I am just sitting motionless... ) Meanwhile, I will continue to play occasionally at Tygem and hope that I can advance enough to get out of the 18-kyu starter class.

Please understand, I'm not all that rank conscious, I just want to play some games! And MFoG is always there, any time of day or night, waiting when my wife goes to the gym or shopping. (Just like I used to jump into and out of World of Warcraft before I kicked that addiction! Life is a game, right? )

[Aidoneus]

OK, this indicates a problem you have. Ignore for a moment how much or little time your opponent is using (except to notice whether in time trouble).

You aren't taking time to think. You are moving impulsively, not looking around. You have to try to find some way to break yourself of this bad habit of taking only 2-3 seconds to decide on a move. Probably not unrelated to the symptom you describe of "following".

When I grew up, 40 moves in 2-2.5 hours with 20 moves in 1 hour for subsequent segments was pretty standard for serious chess games. (Even grandmasters now must play faster games to encourage sponsorship. The same thing seems to be happening with Go.) I had no problem using all of my time--my middle name is Sitzfleisch. I also have played lots of 5-minute games in chess clubs. I don't have a good feel, yet, for what is a slow time setting with Go. So, when the program plays instantly, I too often take its lead. I really haven't had that problem playing people online.