I figured I should also think about two other things.
One: How the Aji in the bottom right plays out. Two: If I repeatedly say, the center is not that important in this game. Can I get away with inading 3*3 now?
I'm not 100% sure but I guess that dies. In a pro match was played and the comments explained this kills the Aji in the corner - at least if my memory serves me right.
There are some other variations of course. I will deal with them later ^^ (Lazy me!)
Taking Sente like this... hmmm... If White now lives in the bottom right corner I play like 'a' and would feel perfectly fine. If White plays 'a' instead then maybe 'b' is called for, I'm not that good with handling center groups though. White feels in command like that and I don't like it ^^
I don't like a lot of discussed ilnes. This is my attempt to use bottom right. I disagree with Sodesune that the centre is unimportant this game : As a matter of fact it looks like a moyo game.
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@Loons
Are you sure 13 for 14 is a good exchange for black? I wonder about directly playing 15. If white answers at h17 it feels a bit strange with the corner still open. If black doesn't like h17 he could play at j16 instead of k16 as g17 is much too cramped for white, but conversely there's a bigger gap to the right for white to invade in. If white answers k16 at c16 shimari (or maybe d15?!) then would black chose to play g17 now, is it really the biggest move? It's certainly big, but being gote it allows white to play around tengen or f4 or p15. If we had k16 c14 I would also be thinking about tengen or c3 next for black. If white then plays h17 black is quite content to answer with h15 cap I think (and tengen would work with that). Probably white h16 would be a better move there.
Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So the game for White is probably to sacrifice with plays like , sooner or later. Because of the possibility of the capping play or the invasion of the top right side, the top side is less urgent after this choice of .
Nicely put. That's the sort of thing I was trying to think about how r4 affects white's play elsewhere but it hadn't really crystallized. By being a territory rather than influence move it makes a moyo game less likely: simple really.
I did think about it quite a bit, playing K16 directly was my first feeling. My mind is very open to other ideas or criticism here.
My reasoning is; G17 is definitely sente without K16 in place yet, G17 gives K16 a base, strengthening it for when white goes to reduce the double-wing shimari framework.
If black waits to play G17 he may miss the time for it later (perhaps at territorial cost).
And it seems naieve to be threatening to play territorially top left later at the expense of the big moyo now. Similarly I do not really want to invade 3-3 bottom left.
I like territory, but I don't want to reach for it directly. I wold like white to try resisting the implicit K16 for me to take the top left.
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Blimey, are there any non-dan players here? I feel like a minnow with some of these rather awesome people commenting.
FWIW, and at the risk of confirming myself the fool rather than leaving it in doubt, I was going to put a bigger post at the end of the fuseki explaining why I didn't do some of the things I didn't do. Is there anyone following to whom this might be of interest?
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topazg wrote:
Blimey, are there any non-dan players here? I feel like a minnow with some of these rather awesome people commenting.
FWIW, and at the risk of confirming myself the fool rather than leaving it in doubt, I was going to put a bigger post at the end of the fuseki explaining why I didn't do some of the things I didn't do. Is there anyone following to whom this might be of interest?
Yeah, me! I've been lurking about, reading all the dan-talk. Very interesting to go with an interesting game.
Blimey, are there any non-dan players here? I feel like a minnow with some of these rather awesome people commenting.
FWIW, and at the risk of confirming myself the fool rather than leaving it in doubt, I was going to put a bigger post at the end of the fuseki explaining why I didn't do some of the things I didn't do. Is there anyone following to whom this might be of interest?
Oh, sure! That would be interesting.
We are having fun speculating about things that you don't see every day. Like the 3 space pincer by Black and the 4-4, 5-3 combination by White. So of course your thoughts would be of interest.
_________________ The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on? — Winona Adkins
I'm also lurking about, though I will likely have more to say (and more foolishness to expose) during the middle game. I'm not great with fuseki (or most other parts of the game, actually ).
Not actually sure whether makes Black at "a" too appealing - if I don't like the way it looks, I may play "b" instead.... and maybe Black "c" needs to be prevented first. Some things to think about anyway. I may instead look at playing the following move instead, even if Black approaches as above:
I'm not actually convinced that is joseki if Black plays here, or whether it's too close to , but if Black plays "a" it's fairly close to the lines I was hoping to play in the first diagram, and it ... well, if it's not joseki, it should be, it's too interesting not to be, so there!
Not sure about this idea, but "a", which can be an annoying shape point, doesn't appear to have too bad aji, so it's possible, and avoids anything too toothpastey if Black counter pincers (which I'm less concerned about with Black's potentially flat shape along the top).
I'm really glad the game sparks some interest and I'm looking forward to read all your comments when it finishes =) I expect there will be some very enlightening moments : D
I pretty much decided that I will not play this line. Although my group is not what I consider weak, it is not particulary stable either. So I always have to look out for possible forcing attacking plays, that can influence other groups (like the one I plan to make in the bottom left).
It also gives White the corner and I begin to question whether that is necessary. Since I thought, White would take the Shimari at , it now seems that with this line I give White the corner and let him also play a checking extension against my newly formed group.
Again, not sure about the Joseki but I guess it makes sense for White to connect to the marked stone. seems like good shape and then I guess White should extend at the top ('b' seems too far?).
I have to read 'c' to 'e' though and see whether this brings any danger to my group.
Omitting and playing 'a' (maybe 'b' is safer) myself seems also plausible. I still can live by jumping into the corner, when White blocks the side. I guess I would play like this.
Taking Sente with is safer. But it also really enlargens my corner. I would still favour Black here but I guess this is playable for White (I don't like it for White though ; ) ).
I guess 'a' instead of is prefered nowadays by professionals? Or was that another Joseki/position? ^^ If White changes to a play in the corner, I still think I can make shape easily by playing 'b' and 'c' looks good for later.
I still feel fine like this. The corner is nicely shared, my group is stable and I opened up a lot of possibilities on the left.
If it goes like this, my shape seems a lot weaker. I'm wondering whether I need another defensive move here. I feel that I don't need to and the only move that comes to me is 'a', which looks very bad anyway. Then again, a White Keima at 'b' really hurts...
Playing does not seem to work well. The marked stone helps out (which is also keeps a nice distance), so I can't really threaten to attack either side. If White next plays something like then I have a floating group.
A contest of frameworks but White has many more options to react to ... The other thing is, by playing like this I turn the marked white stone into a really good move. Maybe it already was a really good move and I'm the only one having problems seeing that but with the sequence above there is no doubt of it at all.
I feel that this makes the game too straightforward and thus boring.
Yet another thing: I mentioned quite often that I think the center is not important in this game. And like this it becomes very important. I should work very hard not to contradict myself : D
Okay, too much thinking - more action! Just in principle: It's the last semi-open corner and I thought White would play there, so to me this move is important. Especially when I consider a White play there now. I'm not so happy with one Joseki but maybe this has something to do with me not knowing the correct Joseki. Either way now it's White's turn and let's how he likes to play this out : )
I recently read Antti Törmänen's blog where he said that Kosumi is more often seen in professional play nowadays. Though I think in this situation it wouldn't be good (with in place). I guess I covered everything in my earlier posts - at least I hope so ^^
But maybe better at now I have a left side stone already?
Was originally worried about this direction of play being points-light .. playing the 3-3 would help somewhat, but seems less consistent with the moyo-ish ideas going on. Isn't Go interesting
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Bill Spight
. Now any extension with 
is overconcentrated.
was played and the comments explained this kills the Aji in the corner - at least if my memory serves me right.
with plays like 
, sooner or later. Because of the possibility of the capping play or the invasion of the top right side, the top side is less urgent after this choice of 
.
Normally I don't like tengen much, but it seems plausible there.
).
makes Black at "a" too appealing - if I don't like the way it looks, I may play "b" instead.... and maybe Black "c" needs to be prevented first. Some things to think about anyway. I may instead look at playing the following move instead, even if Black approaches as above:
is joseki if Black plays here, or whether it's too close to 
, but if Black plays "a" it's fairly close to the lines I was hoping to play in the first diagram, and it ... well, if it's not joseki, it should be, it's too interesting not to be, so there!
seems like good shape and then I guess White should extend at the top ('b' seems too far?).
there will never be much a framework and White is simply cut into pieces.
is safer. But it also really enlargens my corner.
does not seem to work well. The marked stone helps out 
then I have a floating group.