schawipps messy games

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:37 pm

Today, I played this game on KGS. In the opening, I felt unsure about the correct direction. Later we had some minor fights in middle game, however my opponent resolved these situations by small sacrifices and finally kept a close lead of 1.5 Pts. I think the game was decided in endgame, where my opponent set more priority in playing sente moves, while I stumbled across with some stupid inaccurate moves. Anyway, thank you in advance for comments and criticism!

Unusedname · Post by **Unusedname** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:42 pm

My thoughts.

I can understand your desire to defend this group but consider. The only important piece of this group is N4. The other two stones can be sacrificed very easily. If you want to settle the group perhaps J5 to keep white low. But (I think) the left side is bigger. This group is in no danger. In my eyes it can easily jump up and to the side in "sente" so finding shape wouldn't be too hard.

I would have played this side too.

I would play D17 on the face that the move played in game makes C13 look very inefficient. Plus it gives a very easy result to white.

Seems like a pointless move. The corner is alive and strong because of capturing the two stones, C13 won't be making much points in combination with this move.

Imagine if L3 were at J5 instead. It's possible to imagine that you are beginning to close white out of the center.

Good plan so far. Not losing sight of what's important.

As you can see this was too aggressive. Perhaps N12 instead. If white runs out with M14, black can connect at O9 and close white out of the center. And white's group still isn't safe yet. Or maybe read and see if N14 works.

Consider what this move does. It keeps two white groups separate. Which is great if you can find a good way to attack C11. Otherwise this move is the same as a pass in which case the other move would have been better.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:29 am

Unusedname wrote: I can understand your desire to defend this group but consider. The only important piece of this group is N4. The other two stones can be sacrificed very easily. <snip> This group is in no danger.

I think

is big. Otherwise, W can peep M3:
If B connects, then the entire B group is heavy.
If B tenukis, then W cuts off o3, and B is left with 3 stupid stones
in the center, while W gets both the right side and the bottom.

After

connect, W is supposed to only get one of the two (right or bottom),
but not both — that's too good for W.
I wonder if

should drop to o2 directly ?
Maybe

at M3 directly, the tiger's mouth.

Yes, if W ataris at N3, then B can counter atari at M3,
and give up the lone o3 stone — B keeps the outside and M3.
But if W peeps M3 and B tenukis, that's a big loss for B.

Instead of

hane, maybe W can peep M3 —
B is left with a heavy group.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:49 am

31 seems sort of ok to me, like Ed said peep rather than cut to attack everything could be white's continuation if tenuki. I would also point out that if white didn't want black to play there he could have m3 peeped instead of p2. After black connect white could m2 and lose a bit in the corner when black pushes or jumps, or come back to p2 and black could play m2 to stabilise his group but it's even smaller than m3 (and less follow up at g4). If black doesn't like white blocking at p2 after peep-connect then black could push there immediately after peep and white can choose between cutting and giving black the corner or just blocking. Black feels a bit strange to me in the game result, but you got the lower left corner and still have your Chinese side so maybe it's ok. I wonder about jump out and cap in response to white's 2 space pincer (jump isn't normally good with that pincer but I'm trying to make good use of n5 thickness).

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:44 am

Thank you all for the excellent feedback and discussion! Sometimes someone has to say obvious things before thinking blockades go away

The decision for move

was quite difficult. As EdLee pointed out, I feared that the whole group goes to waste and white gets a really huge right and bottom area. On the other hand, I felt urged to play something bigger elsewhere. Probably the J5 alternative mentioned by Unusedname is the best alternative?

Unusedname wrote: Consider what this move does. It keeps two white groups separate. Which is great if you can find a good way to attack C11. Otherwise this move is the same as a pass in which case the other move would have been better.

Yeah, I played that move merely by a kind of "shape habit" without really thinking about the consequences. The same holds for move

. Maybe I have to try to play more consciously.

EdLee wrote:After connect, W is supposed to only get one of the two (right or bottom),

Good point. However even the right side alone became quite big (~35 pts in the end) with the W stones Q10 and P14 already in place. Therefore I think there might be already a problem in the opening before. Move

seems like a standard reply in Chinese opening, however a counter approach on R6 might be an alternative. Also

on O3 might be too helpful for white to further strengthen his right side. I could have approached the lower left stone instead and wait for a good opportunity to play e. g. Q7(?). I am still very unsure about direction of play (or whatever...

) in the opening and would appreciate any comment on that.

BTW I tried to count the score in between only to find out that it was very close. This raised my stress level and then game-deciding moves like 157 happened...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:55 am

and

were excellent moves that can't be faulted. If you are looking for a change in the early opening it would be n5 connect at o2. In the usual joseki continuation white cuts* and black gets a stable group with some points on the lower side, white gets the outside stone to develop the centre/right side and the corner (but not so huge as honte is to fall back to 3-3 in response to the black p2 push, if block black has big aji in the corner). Yeah white's right is big potential, but there's still the r12 gap and you've got big top side potential too.

*He might also choose some active pincer instead.

Unusedname · Post by **Unusedname** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:21 am

EdLee wrote:I think is big. Otherwise, W can peep M3:
If B connects, then the entire B group is heavy.
If B tenukis, then W cuts off o3, and B is left with 3 stupid stones
in the center, while W gets both the right side and the bottom.

My disagreement is that this is a difference of three moves. Black gets initial tenuki and then 2 more tenuki's as white peeps and cuts.

tenuki

tenuki or reduce bottom build strength to invade right.

White is aiming at the double wing, but black is also aiming at the double wing except he has three stones in perfect position to start a reduction. They're strong (I think, because they are facing two directions), and they're sacrificable to aid invasions on the right.

But I have a feeling my misjudgement could be because white's bottom is way more solid then any of black's framework.
And the LL has white pushing black down already so black has poor potential.

But B does have P13 or whatever for

/

to build if he decides not to invade. Whereas white doesn't have a move like that thanks to N5

EDIT: Ah I see how you quoted. I suppose that I am wrong about saying only N4 is important. But in this situation i think saving the other two stones isn't worth three moves else where.

schawipp wrote: The decision for move was quite difficult. As EdLee pointed out, I feared that the whole group goes to waste and white gets a really huge right and bottom area. On the other hand, I felt urged to play something bigger elsewhere. Probably the J5 alternative mentioned by Unusedname is the best alternative?

On second thought I don't think J5 right away would be that great. You should probably save this until some point after white peeps.

Yeah, I played that move merely by a kind of "shape habit" without really thinking about the consequences. The same holds for move . Maybe I have to try to play more consciously.

Haha, I know this is a big problem for me too. That's why I like playing the correspondence games on OGS, more time to think.

Cheers.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:42 am

Here is another close game on KGS, where I build a large left-side moyo and responded IMHO incorrectly on an attachment invasion. In the following fight, I lost the lower left corner (big one...) but got at least some compensation elsewhere. At the end, the result was quite close. Therefore I am especially interested in the correct treatment of the attachment invasion and in possible optimizations during endgame play. Any comments/suggestions are highly appreciated.

Edit: Some obvious endgame issues:
- On move 137 a monkey jump was also possible
- I could have captured a stone on S6 (e. g. move 225)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:03 pm

Hi schawipps,

looks quite natural to me. If you get a bad result here later,
I suspect the mistake is later, and not

.

did you consider or read the very natural Q7 ? Your opponent jumps in
and invades, why is your feeling to run with the stronger side ?

-

exchange: you get gote here all by yourself !

W can close you ( in sente? ) with something like o6 ?

yes, jump out. Both sides made mistakes (

,

).
B and W were helping each other, like good friends.

I also like your variation better.

-

standard bad habit. Can you see why ?

instead of

-

, jumping directly to K5 is probably better.

must read very carefully, for shape disasters. Versus R12, etc.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:43 am

Thanks EdLee for your great comments!

was a kind of blind spot, probably motivated by the proverb "don't touch weak stones". Also, I was a bit greedy about getting a big moyo on right top side (which would require an additional move around q18 to become really big, though --> a slow approach). My attachment

aimed to limit eyespace, i. e. prevent a slide into the corner. However I expected the q7 solid connection and wasn't aware that r8 is sente (w simply threats to enter my moyo via s9). If w played correctly here, I would end up in a similar situation as after move

on left side. Of course I already played the "standard response" q7 on

in similar situations but here, I was in a wrong thinking mode

During moves

-

I really felt happy that I got that "great reduction". Your comment "standard bad habit" is probably one of the best lections, I could get from that game!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:04 am

Hi schawipp, You're welcome.

schawipp wrote: was a kind of blind spot, probably motivated by the proverb "don't touch weak stones".

All proverbs are traps, and that one in particular is quite poisonous.

Locally,

at Q7 happens to be a common good shape for B.

Good to distinguish when proverbs apply, and when they fail miserably.

See also this thread, starting from around post 15,
about other traps in Go.

Eventually, one goal is to get rid of all proverbs,
be free of them completely, and just play the "best" move,
whatever it happens to be. "No rules."

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:13 am

schawipp wrote:During moves - I really felt happy that I got that "great reduction".

I have similar experiences all the time: during a game,
I would feel quite good or even proud of a move
or sequence, only to find out later from a teacher
that it is actually very bad!

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:34 pm

I still have the tendency to go into tight fighting instead of playing safe moves, even in positions where it is not necessary (and where playing just a safe move could save a lot of time needed for reading complex fights). I just had an actual example of that:

Maybe I need to play just lots more games to get the feeling, when I should calm down... As always, any comments are highly appreciated.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:46 pm

Review.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:24 am

@Knotwilg: Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it!

-

,

You are indeed right, I was somehow confused in the first situation and hallucinated about the avalanche joseki (which I do not play normally, BTW). Your variation in the second situation is much more convincing.
-

I have read these proverbs about using thickness to attack and to not make territory with thickness. However I did not yet clearly think about it the other way round - i. e. what should I do if the opponent makes territory with his thickness. This may now hopefully change thanks to your review!
-

Yes I sometimes fall for unimportant small stones/groups. Maybe I'm still influenced by Philidor's proverb "pawns are the soul of chess"...

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