Replay pro games first?

[tekesta]

Recently I just had a bright idea. Wouldn't novices be better off first playing actual games and replaying pro games constantly, before doing puzzles and reading theory books?

[RobertJasiek]

Pro games are no good for beginners - too difficult. The worst advice I received as a beginner was NOT to read theory books. My progress was slow / fast before / after starting to read them.

[snorri]

Probably the best thing is for the novice to have a good teacher to help make those choices.

Personally, I've never believed the notion that pro games are "too difficult." Would you tell a beginning music student not to listen to professional musicians because the music they play is too difficult? Having a sense of what music or a particular instrument ought to sound like is important even if it is not immediately achievable by the student. Similarly, exposure to professional games can give beginners a feeling for what a game ought to look like, even if they don't understand the details. This does not conflict with the idea that more is required to approach understanding of those details (or even the basic concepts). They go hand in hand.

My signature used to be:

The person who says "don't......" is just showing he doesn't know Go at all, I think.

This was taken from an interview with Tei Meiko 9p. It's a short interview, and worth reading.

[Ember]

Actually, this is what I did when I started with Go. I had no one to play with, didn't like internet Go very much and really enjoyed putting stones on my brand new board. That's why I got access to kifu of Japanese professionals - first older games from the 70s and 80s, and later on I searched for more recent records. I replayed many, many records. Of course, I didn't really understand what was going on, but still I was able to enjoy the beauty of the game. That was enough for me at this point. Also, throughout the years I frequently heard that I play "good shapes" and I always attribute this to my starting out with replaying pro games. Even if you do not consciously remember or learn things from replaying the games as a beginner, I still believe that you can learn something subconsciously from this in the long run if you really put some time into it. I'd say that other activities will definitely lead much faster to better results, with playing games and going over them with a stronger player probably being the best. However, every person is different and I think it is most important to do what you like best. If you enjoy replaying pro games: Do it! If it's reading theory books: Go ahead! And if it is playing: Start a game now!

[Nyanjilla]

I've been told of a go school in Japan where the children are made to play through famous games before even learning the rules. That is said to give them a grounding in the overall flow of the game.

It must work.... After all, that's how Shindou Hikaru learned to play....

[Knotwilg]

The closest equivalent I can think of is someone who wants to become a boxer and practices for hours dancing around a pole making threatening gestures. Then they meet someone who has actually learnt how to punch and are knocked out in a matter of seconds.

You need to know what's under the surface: how to punch, how to dodge a punch, how to follow up on a punch, how to avoid exposing yourself while punching ... You don't learn all that by imitating the shadow dance you see in the first rounds on TV.

Same is true for Go. There's a lot to learn and it's very hard, not to say impossible, to learn all that from browsing through a pro game.

[Joaz Banbeck]

I'd advocate doing a little of everything: some theory, a few pro games, play on 19x19s, play on 9x9s, study a few josekis, do some tsumego, etc... because so much of what we need to know is interconnected.

An example: beginner reads joseki, sometimes follows joseki, sometimes not. He gets a similar win/loss record because he doesn't know how to follow up a joseki on the occasions when he does play it. Then he reviews a pro game and sees a pro make full use of the joseki's aji in the middle or late game.

[tekesta]

I've been told of a go school in Japan where the children are made to play through famous games before even learning the rules. That is said to give them a grounding in the overall flow of the game.

It must work.... After all, that's how Shindou Hikaru learned to play....

Such an approach seems to make sense to me. A raw novice taking up Association Football for the first time probably saw dozens of games on TV before the first lesson. The same cannot be said of a novice learning Go in a Western country. In Japan, those kids most likely saw someone playing Go numerous times before joining the school. Until I joined a Go club for the first time, I never saw anyone play the game, anywhere.

[tekesta]

The closest equivalent I can think of is someone who wants to become a boxer and practices for hours dancing around a pole making threatening gestures. Then they meet someone who has actually learnt how to punch and are knocked out in a matter of seconds.

The impostor didn't realize that getting knocked out is part of boxing

You need to know what's under the surface: how to punch, how to dodge a punch, how to follow up on a punch, how to avoid exposing yourself while punching ... You don't learn all that by imitating the shadow dance you see in the first rounds on TV.

Imitating is only a start. As the beginner gains experience - and gets pummeled again and again - he will be able to understand what is under the surface. Experience will provide a background against which any subsequent theory can be interpreted and applied. Theory indicates what to look for in an experience.

Same is true for Go. There's a lot to learn and it's very hard, not to say impossible, to learn all that from browsing through a pro game.

In terms of Go, I can be compared to the person in the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCl3LSEJRig

I've found that learning Go is a bit like learning to speak. A beginner can replay a pro game record from start to finish, but he lacks the background knowledge needed to ask questions about what goes on therein. It's like the infant who hears an adult talk, but cannot know what to make of it. A slightly more advanced player can replay that pro game and have only the most rudimentary understanding of what goes on therein - like a toddler who can recognize and name objects, but not form even simple sentences. A strong amateur or pro can replay the same game and ask questions to get answers, just like an adult that can hear another adult talk and understand what is being said. The level of background knowledge and understanding is the main difference here.

For those of us who are not pro or strong amateurs, replaying pro games shows us the way forward, even if at first we are like the infant and toddler that have not much more than the most rudimentary skill.

[Knotwilg]

Analogies are usually flawed, boxing or speaking. Even so, adults speak to babies and toddlers in basic ways. Overhearing adult conversation helps but the instrumental part is where adults spend time with children on the basics.

It's not wrong to invest in pro games once in a while. But it should not take a major part of the time spent learning Go.

[Uberdude]

It's not wrong to invest in pro games once in a while. But it should not take a major part of the time spent learning Go.

Tell that to Lee Sedol's dojang in Seoul.

[Knotwilg]

It's not wrong to invest in pro games once in a while. But it should not take a major part of the time spent learning Go.

Tell that to Lee Sedol's dojang in Seoul.

I wasn't talking about aspiring professionals. Those don't come to L19 to ask what they should do with their limited time.

[Polama]

Replaying professional games was immensely useful for me as a new player. I picked up the game of Go with my wife, and without anybody to teach us anything about the game our play was... senseless. How do you accomplish anything? Every turn it seemed like 150 moves were possible. We'd just kind of build unprovoked over-concentrated positions floating in the middle of the board, and then perhaps fail to defend them.

Tsumego showed how to live and die, but not how to get into those positions. Even learning simple joseki was enough to play a couple sane moves in the beginning, but the game still spiraled into insanity from there.

But going through a couple professional games showed what Go play should look like. How long you tend to stay on the 3-5th lines, what sort of situations you move higher from, a rough rate of tenuki, a general guide in how tight and far away to play.

Our Go was still terrible. Obviously I couldn't see the depth of professional play. But once our moves where in the general right vicinity, I could refine. When 150 moves seem possible, it's hard to learn anything from a mistake. When you're pretty sure one of 6 moves should be alright, if your position collapses you can look back and learn something about the starting shape.

Even after that, I credit professional games with a lot of my improvement. Once I understood the game a little better, each kifu offered a couple unexpected suggestions: new shapes I'd never considered, challenges to my conceptions about what is possible. Replaying and memorizing professional games is far from the only path to improvement, and who knows? perhaps not the most direct. But I definitely believe there's something in there for players of any level, and for absolute beginners in particular.

[Bill Spight]

The closest equivalent I can think of is someone who wants to become a boxer and practices for hours dancing around a pole making threatening gestures. Then they meet someone who has actually learnt how to punch and are knocked out in a matter of seconds.

I recall talking with a karateka when full contact karate was just getting started. His jaw was wired shut, the result of a punch in a tournament. I asked him if it was a full contact tournament, and he said no, it was a no contact tournament. He had just inadvertently moved into his opponent's punch. He told me that in fact, there were fewer injuries in full contact karate, because the players did not maintain correct form.

You need to know what's under the surface: how to punch, how to dodge a punch, how to follow up on a punch, how to avoid exposing yourself while punching ... You don't learn all that by imitating the shadow dance you see in the first rounds on TV.

Same is true for Go. There's a lot to learn and it's very hard, not to say impossible, to learn all that from browsing through a pro game.

Well, my main go study, except for go math, has always been of games, pro games and my own. Just think what could have been!

[Bantari]

Pro games are no good for beginners - too difficult. The worst advice I received as a beginner was NOT to read theory books. My progress was slow / fast before / after starting to read them.

Even beginner games are usually too difficult for beginners. This is not a good reason not to look at them.
Besides - you are "special", so not a good example.