Who stands better in this fuseki?

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:57 pm

I need advice: Forward the game to move 22 and tell me who stands better or if it's an even game (and if somebody played a real bad move up to then).

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:24 pm

I'm not as strong as you, but I wonder about the original split at :w4:

and the approach at :w8:

.

By tewari, if the game were played something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would white want to play at A, or somewhere different? It certainly wouldn't be my first choice. With the stone at A, as in the game, I wonder if approaching at the 5-3 point would be better?

By move 22, my feeling is that black has taken the big point on the right side, but white didn't get the opportunity to take a corresponding one, and black has miai between harassing the stone in the upper left and attacking white's shape in the lower left, which seems less than ideal. Sure enough, later in the game the white stone in the upper left has turned into a heavy group that black gets a lot out of attacking, and the thickness white built in the lower left doesn't seem to really come into play with black poking his head out between the two white groups. Alternatively, maybe white should have ignored :b21:

to do something on the top, and dealt with the bad shape, or done something else instead of attaching at C5 for :w14:

, and held that in reserve or taken sente when black fixed it.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:45 pm

4: Taking a side before a corner? Not theoretically optimal.

9: Encouraging W to take F3 and F4, which works very well with K3.
I would have played the old move at D6, hoping to make K3 over-extended.

13: Black owes a move in the lower left.

19: I think B6 is needed here.

22: I would have played C7, not C8. Why jump? D4 is more of a concern than C14.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:11 pm

I pretty much agree with Joaz.

I think that the position is roughly even. Statically, White is a little ahead, but Black can get the last big play of the opening with a pincer on the top side.

I think that the worst play so far was :b13:

. It not only allowed :w14:

, but approached the White strength.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:06 pm

skydyr wrote:I'm not as strong as you, but I wonder about the original split at and the approach at .

By tewari, if the game were played something like this:
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would white want to play at A, or somewhere different?

Hm...interesting. I think a move at "a" would be indeed one of the best. It would be a light way of playing, but loosely connecting the white stones. If White jumps to a kakari at 1 directly, he can be pincered and things get rocky, if white undercuts 5 he can be pincered too in the process. I do not think that tewari shows that my splitting 4 ("a") is badly placed.

After reviewing the game I think I didn't lose it in fuseki, but in the middle game, esp. with 76 which was wayyy to slow. It's amazing how little fuseki actually means when you see all the mistakes done in middle games, though many players (including me) treat fuseki as if would really matter^^.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:40 pm

Pippen wrote:
skydyr wrote:I'm not as strong as you, but I wonder about the original split at and the approach at .

By tewari, if the game were played something like this:
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would white want to play at A, or somewhere different?

Hm...interesting. I think a move at "a" would be indeed one of the best. It would be a light way of playing, but loosely connecting the white stones. If White jumps to a kakari at 1 directly, he can be pincered and things get rocky, if white undercuts 5 he can be pincered too in the process. I do not think that tewari shows that my splitting 4 ("a") is badly placed.

After reviewing the game I think I didn't lose it in fuseki, but in the middle game, esp. with 76 which was wayyy to slow. It's amazing how little fuseki actually means when you see all the mistakes done in middle games, though many players (including me) treat fuseki as if would really matter^^.

At this point, I think that the extension on the top side is the biggest move, and 'a' is probably worse than playing another move in the bottom left corner.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:20 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Pippen wrote:
skydyr wrote:I'm not as strong as you, but I wonder about the original split at and the approach at .

By tewari, if the game were played something like this:
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would white want to play at A, or somewhere different?

Hm...interesting. I think a move at "a" would be indeed one of the best. It would be a light way of playing, but loosely connecting the white stones. If White jumps to a kakari at 1 directly, he can be pincered and things get rocky, if white undercuts 5 he can be pincered too in the process. I do not think that tewari shows that my splitting 4 ("a") is badly placed.

After reviewing the game I think I didn't lose it in fuseki, but in the middle game, esp. with 76 which was wayyy to slow. It's amazing how little fuseki actually means when you see all the mistakes done in middle games, though many players (including me) treat fuseki as if would really matter^^.

At this point, I think that the extension on the top side is the biggest move, and 'a' is probably worse than playing another move in the bottom left corner.

My own assumption was that locally white would want to press at D6 and follow it up with a move in the vicinity of A, but perhaps higher or farther depending on the result on the left side. I agree that the kakari would be problematic as black could play against both sides easily. I can understand the thought that the top is larger also, but it does seem like white gave away a corner if white takes the top.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:29 am

Pippen wrote:... It's amazing how little fuseki actually means when you see all the mistakes done in middle games, though many players (including me) treat fuseki as if would really matter^^.

It does matter. A good fuseki gives you a slight edge in the middle game.

For any given game, the magnitude of mid-game mistakes makes that edge look like noise. But if you look a large bunch of games - enough to smooth out the big mistakes - the results favor those who play better fuseki.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:41 am

I beg to differ. You are filtering out the signal to make the noise significant.

There is no reason to neglect the opening, so try your best to play a good opening. But the effect in winning percentage is marginal. Even at our level, the difference is made in life & death and next in the endgame.

A good opening gives you an edge, as you say. After the opening, all the work still needs to be done.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:46 am

Knotwilg wrote:I beg to differ. You are filtering out the signal to make the noise significant.

There is no reason to neglect the opening, so try your best to play a good opening. But the effect in winning percentage is marginal. Even at our level, the difference is made in life & death and next in the endgame.

A good opening gives you an edge, as you say. After the opening, all the work still needs to be done.

In the 100m sprint those who get out of the block fastest will generally produce faster times. That's not to say that there is not a lot of effort to be put into the remaining 95m. It's the same with go: overall the better starters will produce the better results in the long run.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:09 am

Knotwilg wrote:... You are filtering out the signal to make the noise significant...

No. I'm averaging a bunch of signals to demonstrate that what appeared to be noise is significant.

A car analogy is needed here. :cool:

Most people will assume that they can avoid hitting the car in front of them if they are paying attention and are quick to hit the brakes. If you suggest to them that an additional .8mm of tread would make a difference, they will say that it is just noise.

But if you look at 10,000 accidents, and compare tread depth, it matters.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:37 am

I would also add that an opening advantage can be easily lost in a fast game, but in slower games it is harder for the behind player to elicit mistakes from the leader and catch up. When I played on OGS I was much better at maintaining my advantage after the opening through to the endgame than in real-time games. Now one could say the extra time makes me play a stronger middlegame too, but having a slight lead after the opening means one is in command of the game and can play 'Boa constrictor style' so as to preserve your advantage rather than trying desperate measures to catch up.

Edit: Hence in 2 day Japanese title match games it's fairly common for only 60 moves or so to be played on the first day. So the pros place a lot of importance on the opening. But then if we look at the most recent Gu Li - Lee Sedol jubango game Gu Li lost after a good opening because of one slip in the middlegame: I wonder how long he spent on that crucial move 130 seriously considering Lee's counterattack in the centre.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:46 am

I agree with Uberdude, who was so diligent to stick with Go arguments. Analogies are always a sign of running out of arguments: Go is not like 100m dash or driving a car, so whatever is true there chronologically, is not necessarily true for Go.

Go does not share the linearity with 100m dash. It uses brain, not body, so there are effects of scale and complexity in Go not present in 100m dash. In fact, the only thing Go shares with 100m dash is the fact that it starts and ends. There are numerous analogies possible, all equally flawed.

For example, I could argue that Go is like a match of football: it doesn't matter whether you kick off or not, or whether your ball possession is higher in the first 15 minutes. That might be true in football but it says nothing about Go, only because both are games and have a beginning and an end.

My argument is that in the middle game, life & death issues arise because groups become disconnected and surrounded. This requires a particular skillset, very different from the intuitive skillset in the opening, and the act of killing or living is much more meaningful for a game than the act of playing proper direction or keeping sente in the opening or whatever heuristic that is important in the opening.

Same for the endgame: the alleged noise of blundering by ignoring atari on your big group as stones fill the board is not noise, it's a signal of weakened concentration and needs to be fixed before you dive into the intricacies of the opening.

Notice how few arguments of 100m dash have been used here. You can still disagree with me of course.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:37 am

Knotwilg wrote:My argument is that in the middle game, life & death issues arise because groups become disconnected and surrounded. This requires a particular skillset, very different from the intuitive skillset in the opening, and the act of killing or living is much more meaningful for a game than the act of playing proper direction or keeping sente in the opening

That is my experience too. I do play Split-Fusekis and these are suboptimal openings if we look to the fact that no pro plays them anymore anywhere anyhow. Still I can win basically every game with it (in fact I do better with it than with usual openings) and in games I lose and review I come to the conclusion that at one or more points I either blundered or played a bad direction.

So my theory is: Below a certain level the opening doesn't mean anything if it's not a freak opening with double 2-2 or something similiar. And even in the pro business I doubt that a good pro would become a bad pro if he'd open with double 3-3 from now on which I'd also consider suboptimal nowadays.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:14 am

Bill Spight wrote:I pretty much agree with Joaz.

I think that the position is roughly even. Statically, White is a little ahead, but Black can get the last big play of the opening with a pincer on the top side.

I think that the worst play so far was . It not only allowed , but approached the White strength.

I'm not sure what to think of 13. On the one hand allowing white to make thickness with c5 is bad, but on the other after doing so white's k3 has ended up as an under-extension and white takes gote again so black gets a speedy development. c14 low makes the left side boring so if black did play there c6 would be too flat so perhaps a time for d5 or d6.

Pippen wrote:So my theory is: Below a certain level the opening doesn't mean anything if it's not a freak opening with double 2-2 or something similiar. And even in the pro business I doubt that a good pro would become a bad pro if he'd open with double 3-3 from now on which I'd also consider suboptimal nowadays.

I wouldn't say the opening doesn't mean anything to a 5k (for example), but certainly the middlegame is more important and where most games are decided. However, often the problems one faces in the middlegame are sown in the poor opening (Otake makes this point in Opening Theory Made Easy). It is a common situation when I am reviewing some kyu game and he says "I thought the opening was ok for me but then it all went bad later and I don't know why" and the answer is the opening was bad and he had failed to appreciate the aji and problems in his positions. So while spending masses of time trying to play the perfect opening is not the best way to increase your win rate (but I enjoy it) you should spend enough effort to not come out of it with a several stones handicap. Guo Juan recommends, in a 1 hour game, spending 10 minutes on opening, 30 minutes on middlegame, and 20 on endgame.

Life In 19x19

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who stands better in this fuseki?

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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

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