#241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

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Bill Spight
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Bill Spight »

The Tsuke-Nobi Deferred.

;)
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


quite obvious, the nobi should be mistake actually


@Joaz
Actually no, i guess i should have, my strength should be of some more use... im still abit depressed how i couldnt realize the ko :O and lost some fighting spirit i guess
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black needs to add a move because
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 . 6 . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 4 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |[/go]

I hope to catch a few points in the centre in recompense, considering I have a lot of centre pointing stones.

@Joaz
I thought a little about it, but I preferred the game variation. In hindsight perhaps it was enough points to play that move.

I think I can catch enough points in the centre.
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Uberdude
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 . 6 . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 4 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Lower left is so big I would seriously consider tenuki here. Black now has a chance to use his m16 thickness to tenuki without fear of either group dying rather than to make territory.
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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So I spent a long time wanting to play this move, which is clearly good, but I felt too reducible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Black has a possibility of a ko fight here.
Unfortunately for him, he doesn't seem to have the necessary ko threats to make it work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X X , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 5 a . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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xoxo88
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by xoxo88 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

I feel quite comfortable ignoring that move, though surely I wanted to play down there myself. I will have a further look if black has some lethal followup I'm not seeing. Mostly I'm torn about continuing in the middle. I'm a little leery because if I keep playing moves in the centre and ceding corner moves, these centre moves must actually be big potatoes...

If I get 'c', black might have to live on the right. 'a' connects my thickness. 'b' seems huge for both to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 a . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . b . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 :w3: :b2:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X 3 , . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 . . X . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Eh, I think I've been making mistakes. I have part of a centre made of wet tissue paper. I think I've mentioned 104 before. It's a move at the edge of two moyos, and aims to rescue my cutting stone on the right.

Xoxo must see a followup or have considered bottom left sente for me, neither of which I am sure of.
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

@ Loons
Loons wrote:
Xoxo must see a followup or have considered bottom left sente for me, neither of which I am sure of.


Why? Maybe he thought a ~40 point gote move was the biggest on the board, which I find hard to disagree with.
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Uberdude wrote:@ Loons
Loons wrote:
Xoxo must see a followup or have considered bottom left sente for me, neither of which I am sure of.


Why? Maybe he thought a ~40 point gote move was the biggest on the board, which I find hard to disagree with.

Loons wrote:Eh, I think I've been making mistakes. I have part of a centre made of wet tissue paper.

Relatedly, I was never very confident in my own sequence bottom left, which is perhaps why I misunderestimated it.
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Uberdude
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Uberdude »

@Loons

What was your sequence there? Or what did you hope for but which black resistances were troublesome?
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Loons
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Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Hmm... Earlier, something like this:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . 7 5 O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 4 O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 3 X X O X 2 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 0 . O 1 . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 5 O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 3 X X O X 2 X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 8 . O 1 . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Which looks worryingly successful, doesn't it. Black could rob the corner or something. Also how sente and likely and necessary was :w1: :b2: at some past point anyway?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc cf.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . X . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . X X O X . X . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . O . . . . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
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