#230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Guess it wasn't a probe. White just wants to live here right now. My goal is that he does so in gote so I can break up the bottom. If he lets me kill him I'd be willing to take that too.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Kirby
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Kirby »

hailthorn011 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Figure I'll go ahead and take advantage of this move. I worry this might be a little early, but I can't really see a reason to avoid it.




I think there's still a reason to avoid this move (I edited the diagram in the quote to show only the last move).

It's probably well known that a popular point for invasion is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black doesn't play on the side, white can easily connect. For example, if white wanted to have the outside influence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Uh oh! Atari! Doh!

But now, after the exchange that happened in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has no problems. He could go crazy on the second line, but he can even choose to play it simple if he's in trouble:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 6 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can probably even be more adventurous:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 5 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This wouldn't happen immediately or anything, and white might not even get the chance to play it in the game.

But the point is, this exchange:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . C . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strengthens black. But what does it do for white? Not that much, in my opinion. There's a possibility that it could slightly help if black invaded around the marked area, but the presence of the stone doesn't make a huge difference.

Because the exchange helps black more than white, the move is bad for white.

This being said, it would be a more severe problem if white had the stone here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


instead of one space higher, so there's a little less pressure on black.
be immersed
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, it's been awhile since I played in this game, so I'm going to have to try and remember what my mindset was. I'm also probably more than a little rusty so this is likely going to be a disaster! But we'll see. Figure I'll make life here which seems to be what my plan was.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was quite happy to have hailthorn message me today and inform me he is prepared to resume this game. Hopefully I have improved since last year, but I'd assume he has improved as well.

I hope we can both finish it strong.

This move is one I wasn't planning on playing a year ago. I would have simply played the nobi. However, I think I can get away with this. If white aims for the ponnuki I'll get a large corner and his ponnuki, while strongish, doesn't seem that great. I'm striking a shape point at R9 already.

If he moves to live in the corner, I will strengthen myself by defending the cut at Q6. In the end, he should live in gote, which was my goal a year ago. That seems like a good goal to me today as well.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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hailthorn011
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Number of the beast, eh Moyaji?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, :black: did as I expected there. So I played where I was going to so I can get the corner. Not looking exactly fabulous for my bottom side, but it was never going to when I decided to attack.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

hailthorn011 wrote:Number of the beast, eh Moyaji?

Indeed. I believe you played your 1000th post in one of our games. Milestones all around.

Also, you missed the second 'o' in my username again. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First, I will take this move. Then I will defend. I suppose I could make the corner go to ko by playing a double hane here, but hailthorn would have too many local threats...
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Sorry, I have no idea why I keep doing that!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, I considered playing R7 here but I realize that was indeed an awful move upon further inspection. So I'm just going to R2 here.
Slava Ukraini!
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I will simply defend this solidly. In the end, my opponent will need to descend to live and I will gain sente.

I'll give a bit of insight into some reading I did. I was looking at playing the descent instead of connecting at 'a' first...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . a X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked stone does allow me to play this, but does it kill the corner? As far as I can tell, it sadly does not.

Still, he will only live in gote. Then I need to decide how I want to invade on the bottom side using this wall...
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Uberdude
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Uberdude »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White descent here is better: if black defends the cut then white can think about tenuki as black can't kill unconditionally: a for b is alive, or b is ko. Black could not defend the cut if there is some particularly good move elsewhere (m3 is ok but rather small) and let white capture one more stone. That's trying to increase r9's efficiency, it's in a bad place now. Maybe r6 should have been r3.
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I figure I'll go for this now as it seems pretty alright to my eyes. I figure he'll connect above leaving me to atari :b33:. Now the real question is whether or not he'll play S5 but I guess I'll find out!
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by Uberdude »

Of course black should s5 if white captures the outside stone. If white wants to go for this trade (which seems pretty awful to me, it's a big corner and it makes r9 useful) it would have been much better not to have made the 36-37 exchange as that weakens the lower side, for example this invasion point is now connected instead of cuttable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 1 2 . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . B X W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 9 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wow... :shock:

I don't get it. Why is white playing this now? It seems foolish to make his sacrifice in the corner even larger if he's just going to give up those stones. Perhaps he can't read out how to live? Maybe he really feels he needs sente? But won't it be hard for his ponnuki on the outside if he doesn't play another move?

We shall see...
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O 0 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm really getting the vibe that maybe this was a bad idea. My reading needs A LOT of work. Doesn't help that I'm rusty, I guess. Actually, I saw this sort of scenario play out on KGS and I realized I was playing something awful. So, hopefully it's not too late to fix this. :scratch:
Slava Ukraini!
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Huh. I suppose I should have read this move. It is better for living than the tiger's mouth. :oops:

I don't see how I can force sente out of this if I play another move to save my stone at S7 - so I won't try. Obviously, white could take my stone, but I'm not sure that's worth sente. I think I'd get another move if he went for that now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 I don't think either 'a' or 'b' is worth sente...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . a O X b |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O C . . X . O . x . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to finally exploit the weaknesses white left for me on the lower side. I considered playing closer to my wall, but that seemed too small. If I'm going to mount some kind of an attack, it's got to be worth what I gave up in the corner. Playing closer, at 'x' above for example, is not enough.

Another thing to consider is that, with my second line stones, it will be very hard for white to defend anything close to my wall. Such a reduction can come whenever I see fit. An attack is needed now.

It has been a while, but I remember that I can aim for an E3 attachment. White's knight's move doesn't seem as greedy anymore, but it definately leaves aji.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #230 Moyoaji vs Hailthorn

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I saw that one coming. I guess I'll take this moment and fortify my right side. And maybe I can make :black: regret this move. Maybe.
Slava Ukraini!
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