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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #61 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:48 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #62 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:55 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
point "a" will be very painful for him..
i have invasion at "b" that is pretty good because of my influence.
i just hope he answer "c" and not as below.. i dont wanna think..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . b . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #63 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:00 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A wise man once told me,

"To place the good-a moves, you must close your eyes... but keep your mind, wide open."

Inside joke, don't worry about it.

Anyways, I think I can play here, I've been doing my reading, and according to my analysis, this is far better than just blocking passively.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . 3 . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And this would be a problem.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #64 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:19 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
yes..if i can think of that move...i should've guessed that he can see also. my bad..

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline kokomi
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #65 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:21 pm 
Lives in gote
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Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

nothing different..


@ Magicwand

wondering why black has to play k10, can black play two spaces jump L17 on the upper side? What would white play if black tenuki at k10. Maybe white will play K10? Does it mean black's center group is weaker than the two upper one?

Thanks.

_________________
长考出臭棋.
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #66 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:22 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No choices here...
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #67 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:27 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X B O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #68 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:33 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #69 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:34 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . B O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #70 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:44 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now Black has peeped at a bamboo joint. Not so great.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"Don't let the double knight's move get away." :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #71 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:00 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 754
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 144
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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 Profile  
 
Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #72 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:11 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
edited: more sequence
if he want this fight ...i dont mind. i think i will have advantage.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 4 . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . 3 . . 1 . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 2 O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this picture is not much different..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i dont see him playing this either..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #73 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:03 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


edited: more sequence
if he want this fight ...i dont mind. i think i will have advantage.


I like this play. I don't know about the advantage, though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is shape, I think, but it feels insipid.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 O . B . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . a . O . . 6 4 . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . 3 . . 1 . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 2 O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this picture is not much different..


Running with :b4:, etc., feels heavy to me. (Jowa says, "Don't run.") I think I would slide in at "a" instead. If White responds in the corner or nails down the :bc: stone, then "b" looks good.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #74 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:04 pm 
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IGS: ethanb
I know I'm late to the party with this comment (didn't have internet access for a few days) but...

Magicwand wrote:
he has a choice of a, b, c, d,
d is pretty recent and complicated.
i assume he will play b. but ..never know what to expect.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




For weaker players reading Magicwand's comments to learn from him, this B is *not* an option. I have no idea at all why he thought Violence would play it. I read that and almost fell out of my chair. The only reason you would ever play this move is if there was some threat on the right side and you needed to defend a weak group there. *Never* in the opening.

After I recovered I said "well, maybe he knows something I don't" and checked my database of games (gathered piecemeal here and there, but it's fairly extensive nonetheless.)

I turned it up in 6 amateur games (5 were strong amateur -- 6d+ games, one was myself as a 5k versus another 5k on KGS) and only 3 pro games.

The only one of those games where it occurred as an opening move was the 5k vs. 5k game (embarrassingly though, I was the one who played it - and I did lose that game.)

Every other time it was because the game had progressed well beyond the early opening anyway, and players were deviating from joseki to shore up weaknesses in existing groups. As far as I can see, there are no redeeming values to it whatsoever as a move with an open board to the right, and as far as my database says, stronger players tend to agree with me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going over the moves in order:
A: classic - shrinks black's corner, easy to make territory on the right, black is easy to make influence on the bottom. Downside in this case, black's hoshi in the upper right means the territory on the right side might not come to much.
B: awful move - no pressure on black's corner, black is easy to make influence on the bottom, black is easy to squeeze white on the right.
C: thick move - prevents black from making a moyo on the bottom or in the center. Black may catch one stone later to get a large corner.
D: recent variation - less pressure on black's corner, but still some. Black may still make influence over the bottom, but maybe a little less than with A. Easy to find eyespace, so difficult to attack from the right immediately.

Magicwand, when the game is over I really want to know why you thought white would play B.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #75 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:37 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
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ethanb wrote:
I know I'm late to the party with this comment (didn't have internet access for a few days) but...

Magicwand wrote:
he has a choice of a, b, c, d,
d is pretty recent and complicated.
i assume he will play b. but ..never know what to expect.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




For weaker players reading Magicwand's comments to learn from him, this B is *not* an option. I have no idea at all why he thought Violence would play it. I read that and almost fell out of my chair. The only reason you would ever play this move is if there was some threat on the right side and you needed to defend a weak group there. *Never* in the opening.

After I recovered I said "well, maybe he knows something I don't" and checked my database of games (gathered piecemeal here and there, but it's fairly extensive nonetheless.)

I turned it up in 6 amateur games (5 were strong amateur -- 6d+ games, one was myself as a 5k versus another 5k on KGS) and only 3 pro games.

The only one of those games where it occurred as an opening move was the 5k vs. 5k game (embarrassingly though, I was the one who played it - and I did lose that game.)

Every other time it was because the game had progressed well beyond the early opening anyway, and players were deviating from joseki to shore up weaknesses in existing groups. As far as I can see, there are no redeeming values to it whatsoever as a move with an open board to the right, and as far as my database says, stronger players tend to agree with me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going over the moves in order:
A: classic - shrinks black's corner, easy to make territory on the right, black is easy to make influence on the bottom. Downside in this case, black's hoshi in the upper right means the territory on the right side might not come to much.
B: awful move - no pressure on black's corner, black is easy to make influence on the bottom, black is easy to squeeze white on the right.
C: thick move - prevents black from making a moyo on the bottom or in the center. Black may catch one stone later to get a large corner.
D: recent variation - less pressure on black's corner, but still some. Black may still make influence over the bottom, but maybe a little less than with A. Easy to find eyespace, so difficult to attack from the right immediately.

Magicwand, when the game is over I really want to know why you thought white would play B.


What is the date range of your database? Joseki do become obsolete, but fashions also come and go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is joseki according to Suzuki-Kitani (1965). It may not be in fashion now, but that does not mean it is awful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, I think that it is questionable here, because of :bc: . :b2: starts a fight.

As for the hanging connection, it also appears as joseki in Suzuki-Kitani, so I doubt if it is a recent variation. ;)

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: My prediction
Post #76 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:35 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seemingly natural moves can easily lead to problems for black like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 W 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O 2 X 5 X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 8 X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 1 W 3 9 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O 2 X 8 X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 6 X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 W 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O 3 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 4 5 2 . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 6 . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X W X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 3 . 2 . O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . 4 . 1 5 . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


To avoid situations like the above, black has to concede some eyespace or a R18 connection to white.

Even then, that can have pitfalls:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 W 3 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O 1 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . 8 X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #77 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:43 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
ethanb wrote:
I know I'm late to the party with this comment (didn't have internet access for a few days) but...

Magicwand wrote:
he has a choice of a, b, c, d,
d is pretty recent and complicated.
i assume he will play b. but ..never know what to expect.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




For weaker players reading Magicwand's comments to learn from him, this B is *not* an option. I have no idea at all why he thought Violence would play it. I read that and almost fell out of my chair. The only reason you would ever play this move is if there was some threat on the right side and you needed to defend a weak group there. *Never* in the opening.

After I recovered I said "well, maybe he knows something I don't" and checked my database of games (gathered piecemeal here and there, but it's fairly extensive nonetheless.)

I turned it up in 6 amateur games (5 were strong amateur -- 6d+ games, one was myself as a 5k versus another 5k on KGS) and only 3 pro games.

The only one of those games where it occurred as an opening move was the 5k vs. 5k game (embarrassingly though, I was the one who played it - and I did lose that game.)

Every other time it was because the game had progressed well beyond the early opening anyway, and players were deviating from joseki to shore up weaknesses in existing groups. As far as I can see, there are no redeeming values to it whatsoever as a move with an open board to the right, and as far as my database says, stronger players tend to agree with me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O b d . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going over the moves in order:
A: classic - shrinks black's corner, easy to make territory on the right, black is easy to make influence on the bottom. Downside in this case, black's hoshi in the upper right means the territory on the right side might not come to much.
B: awful move - no pressure on black's corner, black is easy to make influence on the bottom, black is easy to squeeze white on the right.
C: thick move - prevents black from making a moyo on the bottom or in the center. Black may catch one stone later to get a large corner.
D: recent variation - less pressure on black's corner, but still some. Black may still make influence over the bottom, but maybe a little less than with A. Easy to find eyespace, so difficult to attack from the right immediately.

Magicwand, when the game is over I really want to know why you thought white would play B.


What is the date range of your database? Joseki do become obsolete, but fashions also come and go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is joseki according to Suzuki-Kitani (1965). It may not be in fashion now, but that does not mean it is awful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, I think that it is questionable here, because of :bc: . :b2: starts a fight.

As for the hanging connection, it also appears as joseki in Suzuki-Kitani, so I doubt if it is a recent variation. ;)

The date range is pretty large (ancient China to yesterday), but breadth != depth. :) Kombilo says I've got 72270 games.

I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?

Didn't do a search for the hanging connection, I just assumed it was recent from what magicwand said about it. Crazy and complicated usually means modern. :) I don't remember seeing it used in a game without a pincer first, but let me do a search now...

Earliest result is Go Seigen 4p vs. Honinbo Shusai, but that was a special case in the late middle game.

In fact, similar to the solid connection, I never see it played by (known) pros in the opening. I see it played by an 8d on Tygem with an open side, but it's qualified by the fight going on on the bottom part of the board, so probably still a special case.
I also see it played in the opening by kghin in 2009 (he lost that game.)
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #78 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:21 am 
Gosei
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For everyone:
With regards to the corner joseki in the bottom right, I was curious about it, as I'd already expressed. As a result, I used it in a 2-stone game at the club last night as black, to learn more about how it works in practice. It seemed to work fairly well (I got a reasonable corner and managed to pincer white's group into a dragon that eventually became 20+ running stones). However, my question is this: in what full-board situations is this joseki recommended? Obviously anyone can start it in most games, but I was curious when it would be advisable (or particularly inadvisable).

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Offline crux
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #79 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:24 am 
Lives with ko

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ethanb wrote:
I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?


In GoGoD there are practically no examples of this when White doesn't already have an extension along the side.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #80 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:27 am 
Honinbo

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ethanb wrote:
The date range is pretty large (ancient China to yesterday), but breadth != depth. :) Kombilo says I've got 72270 games.

I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?

Didn't do a search for the hanging connection, I just assumed it was recent from what magicwand said about it. Crazy and complicated usually means modern. :) I don't remember seeing it used in a game without a pincer first, but let me do a search now...

Earliest result is Go Seigen 4p vs. Honinbo Shusai, but that was a special case in the late middle game.

In fact, similar to the solid connection, I never see it played by (known) pros in the opening. I see it played by an 8d on Tygem with an open side, but it's qualified by the fight going on on the bottom part of the board, so probably still a special case.
I also see it played in the opening by kghin in 2009 (he lost that game.)


My impression is that Suzuki-Kitani is reliable about classifying something as joseki, because they distinguish among joseki, ancient (obsolete) joseki, common patterns, fights, and equal exchanges (not to mention situational sequences). If a sequence were not accepted as standard, I doubt if they would call it joseki.

Quote:
Crazy and complicated usually means modern. :)


Or ancient. ;)

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