#244 Bill vs Ed

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

From :w33: through :b40: , :black: lost a bit locally (post 73).
Globally, of course, :black: was still doing well.

( Local time Fri Dec 26, 2014. 6:32 pm. )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For beginners.

I thought :b44: was good; it was the first :black: move that showed fighting spirit, to me.

That corner, :b44: split :white: into two weak groups.
If :black: could continue to attack well, :white: would be in trouble.
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm57
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For beginners.

This :b58: atari feels slow. Maybe too conservative; a bit scared ?
There are a few more :black: moves like this later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Instead, if :black: takes a big move like :b1: hane, then if :w2: runs,
then :black: welcomes this fight.

( Local time Fri Dec 26, 2014. 6:45 pm. )
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm79
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 . . . . . 2 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
The :b80: atari is another example that seems slow.

Instead, :black: has the option to push-and-cut with :b1: ... :b3: .
If :white: tries to run with :w4:, again, :black: can handle the fight.
:white: still has to deal with (a) at some point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . 5 . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O a . 1 O . . . . . 4 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O 2 3 . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


( Local time Fri Dec 26, 2014. 11:07 pm )
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Aidoneus
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Hi Ed,

I resign. Congratulations and thank you for playing me. :D

Time to go back and read the hidden comments!
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Bill,

Thanks very much. Our return flight tickets are for coming Monday Dec 29, 2014.
Since I didn't carry any computing device for this trip except for an iPhone 4S,
this has been the only Go game I could afford this whole time.
Thank you.

You did very well, for a very long time.
I started adding some thoughts about the game in the recent few posts,
and I still had not reached the upper-left fight that was very important.

Up until that point, I was behind the whole time. :)

I'm curious about the comments, too. Like opening presents for the holidays. :mrgreen:

( Local time Fri Dec 26, 2014. 11:15 pm )
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Re:

Post by skydyr »

EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For beginners.

Of course, :b2: is a very big move.
But from this move, and certain :black: moves later,
there's a feeling :black: was avoiding direct conflict with :white: .
This is a strategy. It could work if the follow-ups were OK,
and :black:'s follow-ups were quite OK for a long time.

Both :b8: and :b10: had this similar feeling (posts 296, 297).

( Local time Fri Dec 26, 2014. 5:30 pm. )


I'll leave this open now that the game is over...

I don't think that a move on the top side is right for black at this point. White's move is hard to pressure, because it has miai to extend to either side and can't easily be confined to the top. It's also not urgent, because it's not opening any big aji into black's left or right sides or upper corners, and being one stone, it's light. As such, I think it's clear that the right play is to tenuki. Whether white's move is right or not is hard to say, since the 'correct' move against 6 stones is probably to resign, but it certainly doesn't have the same pressure as a direct approach to a corner, although it potentially increases the value of an approach now.

From an opening perspective, prior to white's move there were two big open areas left on the board, the top and the bottom. They're exactly alike, so it's easy to treat them as miai. It follows that the right choice for black playing tenuki is to take the other in some manner, and practically the only moves are the game move or the star point right above it. This isn't to say that there aren't other moves that are perfectly viable and will lead to a winnable game as well. With 6 extra stones on the board it's hard to play a truly bad move at the beginning, before white's able to start confusing things, but I feel :b2: is beyond reproach.
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

I hadn't realized that some of the early comments were already revealed! In any case, thank you to one and all for your observations.

Some post-game thoughts.

I see that my first major mistake was playing P5 instead of S5. Yeah, a hane in similar positions had turned out poorly for me in computer games so I tried the atari instead. But I see now how much better it would have been to seal the side.

Now that I see the comments. Yes, I saw that I had a net for the stone at J6 when I played J7. I think that it was the first time I've ever played a net in an actual game--exciting! (As opposed to finding them in many problems!) In retrospect, the move was way too small. I really need to think bigger and globally.

When I played move 82, I saw the sequence to move 87 but overlooked the squeeze tesuji until we reached that move. (I was thinking of the hane underneath, when I could connect out.) I felt like my game was desperate after this, and it went rapidly downhill.

Move 96 was too optimistic; I thought that I was thinking bigger, but that just got more stones killed. With move 100, I thought that I would try to salvage something on top. (The left side stones all being dead.) But being too timid to play the cut at J15 finished any tiny chance left to keep the game competitive. @Bill: I guess that I was playing tic-tac-toe! :oops:

I feel unworthy, but I shall ever endeavor to improve, though the results be ever so meager.
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Post by EdLee »

I feel :b2: is beyond reproach.
Of course, :b2: in itself is a perfectly good move.
But how much to say about it, if at all, can depend on the person taking :black: .

On one extreme, :black: may have OK (local) fighting skills, but has big problems with global judgement. I think there's one story in the little yellow book about this: one of Kageyama's students was fighting too much, even recklessly -- in this case, maybe it's good for the student be very careful when he's about to start a fight; maybe there's a much better alternate idea.

On another extreme -- and I've seen many adult kyu level people, some beginners, fall into this group -- they lack fighting spirit on the board. Whenever there's any sign of conflict, they tend to back down. They would avoid fights of any kind. Part of the reason is their reading skills and fighting skills, or lack thereof. And by avoiding any kind of direct conflict on the board, this becomes a negative downward spiral; it only makes things worse. There are many cases like this. Game after game, they would make moves after moves that are soft, or submissive, etc. For these people, it could be good to encourage them to play "much more aggressively" than they are used to, way past their comfort zone. It's in this light that alternatives to :b2: could be suggested.
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Post by EdLee »

Back at LAX, after an 11+ hour flight. :)

( CA time Mon Dec 29, 2014. 07:33 am )
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