Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

tekesta · Post by **tekesta** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:40 pm

For those just beginning to learn the game on a scholastic basis, would playing under the old Chinese rules on a part-time basis be beneficial in the long run? I believe that one significant benefit would be strengthened middle game and endgame skills. This is the article that led me to ask this question. http://www.oklahoma-go-players.org/?p=272

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Getting outside your comfort zone helps, so I don't think this could hurt as a way to play some of the time.

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:35 pm

Regular go not challenging enough?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:57 pm

Which, if any, is better, diagonal star points

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagonal star points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or parallel star points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Parallel star points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White enforces parallel star points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If diagonal star points is better for Black, White can enforce parallel star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black enforces parallel star points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If diagonal star points is better for White, Black can enforce parallel star points.

Observation by Herb Doughty.

tekesta · Post by **tekesta** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:06 pm

Bantari wrote:Regular go not challenging enough?

Rather, the opposite. Go on an empty board is challenging enough. Still, revisiting older varieties of the game can refresh our understanding thereof.

I think playing under Classical Chinese rules on a scholastic basis would be beneficial for several reasons. One, despite the tactical and strategic richness of Classical Chinese Go, it is hardly played by anyone these days, as just about everyone practices the Japanese form of the game. That is, the empty-board form. (Playing Go on an empty board is a Japanese innovation.) Thus, the intense competition and commercialism associated nowadays with the regular form of Go is not present.

I believe it is possible to cut one's teeth on classical Chinese Go and still be able to play the empty-board game. One major difference would be that the latter feels different due to greater flexibility in the opening and difference in scoring procedure. Fighting is of high importance when playing classical Chinese style, so this would be good to develop the tactical abilities of beginners.

I'll post more after others have had their turn to speak

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:28 am

tekesta wrote: Thus, the intense competition and commercialism associated nowadays with the regular form of Go is not present.

When I play Go I don't notice this. Does a South Korean phone company sponsoring a team in a Korean baduk league really affect me? I like being able to play the opening moves where I wish. But I have also played in some sunjang baduk tournaments which were fun.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:56 am

The difference is so small as to be negligible. The placement stones have a very small impact, which mostly disappears at the amateur level. Fighting is equally important with or without those stones, and playing with them will not teach you anything that you would not learn from a regular game.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:02 am

Uberdude wrote:I have also played in some sunjang baduk tournaments which were fun.

I think that the sunjang baduk setup does lead to fighting go, especially in the center.

OC, sunjang baduk counting is quite different from any other form of counting. Playing it with a familiar form of scoring is fine.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:44 pm

Bill Spight wrote: But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Not true at all. If the parallel opening is better for one player, then the diagonal opening is better for the other player. The only logically correct statement is that in a game between two perfect players, if one opening is better than the other, the diagonal opening will not be played. A corrolary is that if one opening is better than the other, and a diagonal opening is played, one player has already made a mistake (but we do not know which one).

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:11 pm

mitsun wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Not true at all. If the parallel opening is better for one player, then the diagonal opening is better for the other player. The only logically correct statement is that in a game between two perfect players, if one opening is better than the other, the diagonal opening will not be played. A corrolary is that if one opening is better than the other, and a diagonal opening is played, one player has already made a mistake (but we do not know which one).

Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.

But you don't know who made the mistake... white for allowing a diagonal opening or black for taking it. Even if parallel may be better, black may be making a mistake by not taking the diagonal opening opportunity.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:12 pm

oren wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.

But you don't know who made the mistake.

Yeah, isn't that great?

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:14 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

This is confusing to me. What you say "better" what do you mean by that? Better for whom? Better in what sense?

Here is what I am thinking. Look at the following position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Diagonal or parallel? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what it boils down to. Can we say that Black should now play (a)? Or is (b) better? And why?
The same can be said for White's second move. Can we say (1) is better than (a)?
Do we want to say any of that, anyways?

Unless we can answer such questions, we cannot say that one is better than the other. Only that - yes, each player can prevent diagonal fuseki. But this means nothing. By the same token, you can say that both players can always prevent, for example, chinese fuseki, or san-ren-sei. Does that make ni-ren-sei in any way "better" than either of the two?

Same can be said for pretty much any sequence we ever play, like jokes for example. Each player can always prevent any given specific variation from happening - simply by deviating from it. Does that mean other variations are somehow "better"?

I don't get this line of reasoning.
Unless it is just a gimmick to get the juices flowing.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:29 pm

The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:27 pm

HermanHiddema wrote:The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

But since we're imperfect, we don't know if the diagonal play is better or worse.

Life In 19x19

Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules

Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules