??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

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ketchup
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by ketchup »

Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X 2 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

let me know if any problem.


I'm just going to say, these things are traps. They make you lazy to read other possibilities because most people will naturally assume the person has provided the BEST possible moves for both players. This is a big assumption though, since people PLAY FOR THEMSELVES. Doing this should not be allowed. Especially when considering this type of game shouldn't be played in this manner.

I will also say having hidden triggers is better than what is given above, as it doesn't bring out an inherent laziness we experience on the internet. Finally, I will say that it is also just bad manners to be forcing a sequence to be shown directly, when it should be left up to the player to decide a response before seeing it.

I can SOMEWHAT barely understand pulling out a few forcing moves in ko, but that is about it.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by k43r »

Everyone above 18k knows that if someones plays atari then you have to extend. This speeds up game a little avoiding unnecessary variations.

Maybe black should have made a trigger like "if you atari then i'll extend", but it's not so important atm.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Violence »

ketch, don't worry about it too much.

Magicwand gave me a sequence I didn't agree with, so I just read around it.

I think it's your own fault if you allow your reading to be disrupted by something so trivial.

I accepted some of Magicwand's other triggers, like in the 2nd game, but only after I read them for myself.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Magicwand »

ketchup wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X 2 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

let me know if any problem.


I'm just going to say, these things are traps. They make you lazy to read other possibilities because most people will naturally assume the person has provided the BEST possible moves for both players. This is a big assumption though, since people PLAY FOR THEMSELVES. Doing this should not be allowed. Especially when considering this type of game shouldn't be played in this manner.

I will also say having hidden triggers is better than what is given above, as it doesn't bring out an inherent laziness we experience on the internet. Finally, I will say that it is also just bad manners to be forcing a sequence to be shown directly, when it should be left up to the player to decide a response before seeing it.

I can SOMEWHAT barely understand pulling out a few forcing moves in ko, but that is about it.


if you think there is any other sequence of move...you are so weak.
i am not forcing any move. it is 100% his choice. either my suggestion or worse choice. :)
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Harleqin »

No, Magicwand, the problem is not that you do not see a better move (I do not, either). The problem is that these presumptions may cloud the view---there might be a little forcing move that has to be interpolated exactly at this moment, or a little change of order that makes a big difference. I think that this kind of triggers should be put into an extra diagram, so that the original move can be seen by itself first.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Magicwand »

Harleqin wrote:No, Magicwand, the problem is not that you do not see a better move (I do not, either). The problem is that these presumptions may cloud the view---there might be a little forcing move that has to be interpolated exactly at this moment, or a little change of order that makes a big difference. I think that this kind of triggers should be put into an extra diagram, so that the original move can be seen by itself first.


ok..i respect your opinion.
but i will respect my opponents opinion more..
for my future moves i will make my decision according to my opponent's choice.
done deal?
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The only move. If he spends a move to capture my stones, they are left with tons of aji AND I have a good attack on his dragon. I am feeling very good about this game again. I think white K9 was a small mistake and G13 was an overplay.


As far as triggers go, I don't care if Magicwand puts them all on one diagram. Earlier I put what I thought was an obvious sequence in a diagram and he rejected it. I would have rejected this one if it was bad. (In fact it was something I'd already read.) I can see how others might want to do it differently in their games; I think it should be up to the players involved. Honestly, if you worry about something doing that, it should be that you're telling your opponent what *you* intend to do (e.g., Magicwand could see from my earlier trigger that he would retain sente, potentially valuable info). Honestly I don't think people who get to my level (not that it's all that high) will be swayed by such things, anyway.

Besides, the triggered sequence was a net gain for me, I'm pretty sure. I will post more thoughts on the past few moves later.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by ketchup »

Magicwand wrote:ok..i respect your opinion.
but i will respect my opponents opinion more..
for my future moves i will make my decision according to my opponent's choice.
done deal?


You are missing the point completely. You are OKAY to list out a sequence you feel will happen. The basic thing is just that you shouldn't reveal it from the get go. You would never ever tell your opponent what to play in person(and especially not as soon as you play your move, even if it was open discussion). I believe you should give hidden triggers instead, because this is what would be happening in a real game anyways. I'm not entirely sure why you have such a defensive attitude towards this suggestion. It really is a simple suggestion.


Violence wrote:ketch, don't worry about it too much.

Magicwand gave me a sequence I didn't agree with, so I just read around it.


I think that's part of my point. These things create certain traps for the opponent, regardless of who does it. And I really just wanted to get that suggestion out there.

Lastly, I will say if both people are okay with it, that's fine. It's their decision after all. I just thought I should speak up about it.
Last edited by ketchup on Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Uh, ketchup, I think he was saying he'd put them in a hidden diagram or not according to his opponent's preference...
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by ketchup »

I don't think I misunderstood. I usually quote the most relevant things. In this case, it's magicwand's answer to harleqin. I really think he's missing the point entirely of why I'm saying this.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X W X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

now i can even back down..i have to cut after my previous move. going with the flow.
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Explanation for observers (typed up before the move Magicwand just made):

Back here, why can't white extend/cut black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black stays connected and white is split
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . 1 X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X a . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note that black at (a) threatens to save two black stones and capture two white ones.


And here, why doesn't white cut at (a)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O B . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 3 X 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 W O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 5 . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm pretty sure black will win this race.


Finally, I expect something like this for the next few moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X W X . . 4 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 2 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note that if I get a move around :b5: this sequence will start to work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O . 5 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 3 4 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X W X 8 . O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyway, white could end up with all sorts of problems...

Also, (a) starts to look like a very good move for me soon...
Last edited by daniel_the_smith on Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . B . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Next move might take a bit of thinking but I know I want to do this.

It takes the possibility of G12 away from white.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Magicwand
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X W O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O . O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

drunk or not..i think this is the only move :)
Magicwand <--kinda drunk..
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The greater the unknown"
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Lol, maybe I should hurry up and make up my mind! :twisted:

Haha, no. Move sometime between now and Monday. :)
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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