Charles Matthews wrote:skydyr wrote:This is probably not a question with a pat answer, but how to you tell the difference between "severe yet complicated" and "severe yet overplay"? Spheres of influence? Deep and heavy reading? Instinct?
There is quite an interesting point here, in the particular position at issue.
You end up with a group that is a bit heavy, so you have to take care of it.[1] You do so in reasonable style (with a couple of shapeful plays, I'm glad to say). Your breakthrough as I read it would take away considerably more territory, and leave the upper left Black group subject to some later attacking plays. But it would leave you heavier.
I think, fundamentally, you have to take the heavier play in such positions. (It took me a long time to formulate this as a principle, I'll admit, for my own use.) The development over about the next ten plays shows that, to me.
So, breaking through to the second line is typically so big that it is worth some later grief in terms of having to defend. I'm assuming Black has to cut after the hane I suggested.
[1] Well, you don't
have to, as Bill points out. This gets us into another discussion, about
kikashi. In a sense my point is that if you are going to defend, you should make the breakthrough that is one of Bill's variations. This isn't really a trade-off, more a perception thing.
My joking answer to heavy/light groups, at least, is that my groups are heavy and my opponents' are light
I've long suspected that complication comes through the use of less good moves that happen to just work in particular situations. The avalanche, for example, with it's playing into hane-at-the-head-of-2, or other joseki where one hanes on the outside but leaves an exploitable cutting point. I've also begun thinking that not only are there degrees of heaviness and lightness, but that, like strength, the heaviness or lightness of a group is relative to the surrounding groups. If you have a heavy group, but it's in a running fight with another heavy group, it's not really that heavy because of the pressure it can exert on the opposing group. In a sense, the lighter the group is, the more easily it's cut, allowing the opponent to relieve the pressure on his own group. Similarly, the more shapeful one group is, the more trouble the other group may be in, so the heaviness of the group is less relevant.
In retrospect, I think you're right, and Bill's move is the best one to get black running and ruin points. It would probably help the right side connection is the process as well, instead of letting black invade their following the sequence.
Bill Spight wrote:One thing that I noticed in pro games is that fighting players often made plays that seemed heavy to me. Karigane in particular gave me that impression. (Maybe because most of his games that I saw were with Go Seigen.
) Later I found out that Honinbo Shuei had said that Karigane's play was like water.
Aside from being quite a compliment, that does not carry a connotation of heaviness. And so I began to question my own perception of heaviness and lightness, which I had thought was pretty good by the time I had become a dan player.
It wouldn't surprise me if Karigane was off his game by the time of his match with Go Seigen on account of not having been able to get many serious games following the Ki-in/Keiinsha match in the 20s, but the only game of his that I can say I'm truly familiar with (as opposed to having looked over in passing) is the famous killing game from that match. Shuei's commentary, after all, is prior to all of the tumultuous period following his passing.
Things have been kind of leisurely up to this point. Here White at N17 breaks through, and I don't see why not. 
Suddenly White is looking a bit thin.
I'd be looking at O6.
OK, seems to be an attack. Black at L4 is still of interest, but White has some scope to dodge around.
Not now. White has recovered.
Instead of pushing at D6, I like D7 when it works: get one step ahead. If that's the plan, keep options open.
it isn't clear White has made enough territory by attacking. Looks like a small lead for Black to me.
, how do you all see play proceeding?