Who stands better in this fuseki?

Uberdude · **#61**

Attacking the 2 stones at the top was my instinct too, black swallowed the stone on the right rather than defending the top, so it's only natural and fighting spirit for white to get compensation there: you can't let black get both the miai.

Bill Spight · **#62**

Pippen wrote:

A typical pattern from my Split-Fuseki with White to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If this is a typical position, no wonder Pippen's approach works so well. Black is a pawn grabber ( :wc:

being the metaphorical pawn). Pawn grabbing is a go player's disease that is, if anything, worse than the chess equivalent, and can infect surprisingly strong players.

Pippen · **#63**

@Bill: I saw this "pawn-grabbing" by strong amateurs too, so it can't be that bad^^, because if Black doesn't play it White will come out and isolate the stone, beginning a fight that Black might avoid.

But the actual question is: How do I respond to Black? I don't like Lightvector's idea at all, because I feel it's just too small (I do not mean it mean, I appreciate everyone who shares his ideas and I am all but a real strong player, so I also only guess around). My thinking: First Black can still escape from the upper right, there is still tons of aji, second Black has a wall on the right side and gets a third corner or wide extension, perfectly placed with that wall.

Shaddy · **#64**

I want to 2-space high pincer the two stones at the top. The only other move I would consider is taking the empty corner; approaching the bottom right is small because B is very thick on the right.

Bill Spight · **#65**

Pippen wrote:

@Bill: I saw this "pawn-grabbing" by strong amateurs too, so it can't be that bad^^,

Yes, it can. All amateurs have bad habits.

Quote:

because if Black doesn't play it White will come out and isolate the stone, beginning a fight that Black might avoid.

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do that.

Doctor: Don't do that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

First, my guess is that earlier Black played on the right side instead of making a sensible play in the open corner, like :b5:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Second, my guess is that Black played :bc:

as an invasion and then failed to sacrifice it.

Pippen · **#66**

@shaddy: Like this move No. 1?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't know. After 2 it looks favorable for Black, does it?

skydyr · **#67**

Pippen wrote:

I don't know. After 2 it looks favorable for Black, does it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

At this point, isn't white threatening to make a huge top left moyo that will be solidified if black tries to run with the upper right stones? If black just lets them die, that's a big territory. Black has prospects too, of course, but it looks like a game.

Shaddy · **#68**

It looks favorable for White, to me. Black's top right stones are pretty heavy.

Pippen · **#69**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

And now? Black profits more from this moyo game because he has a wall to work with. White's moyo is brutally flat. Doesn't the follwing look better for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1 erases a lot of potential of that wall....

Shaddy · **#70**

The first diagram is better for White. Your diagrams are misleading because the first gives White sente and the second gives Black sente.

Magicwand · **#71**

agree with shaddy and also no professional will answer that passively.
see below pincer. look much better for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . 2 . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · **#72**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Where would White want to play now? I would not know where to begin to attack Black's framework or could White just continue to build his own stuff?

@magicwand: Would u also agree with shaddy that 1 is the best move for White? For me it's amazing that such a move would be bigger than a corner move or approach move in the bottom right corner.

Uberdude · **#73**

I'm not sure whether I'd one-space low or two-space high (or something else) against the top right, or take the empty corner. I agree with Magicwand that white is dreaming if he thinks black will answer so slackly in the lower right and a pincer will make life hard for white. And what Bill said about move 5 should take the empty corner is important to not be tricked by this Pippen split fuseki.

Bill Spight · **#74**

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Where would White want to play now? I would not know where to begin to attack Black's framework or could White just continue to build his own stuff?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Isn't this the Pippen way?

And a pretty good move, IMO.

Magicwand · **#75**

Pippen wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

@magicwand: Would u also agree with shaddy that 1 is the best move for White? For me it's amazing that such a move would be bigger than a corner move or approach move in the bottom right corner.

1 is not to my liking because it is loose.. (doesnt necessary mean not optimal)
i would have played tighter pincer.

Pippen · **#76**

@bill: Is this your idea?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · **#77**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that, given the Black wall, White should make a base.

Pippen · **#78**

Here's another situation that often occurs in one way or another in my Split Fusekis where I don't know if I play sound. Please jump to move 87. I am interested in the situation on the right side and I wanna know basically what to do here as White and if my approach (move 88-94) was OK or not. I think it was not OK, because my upper right goup is potentially dead and I should have made sure it lives.

mitsun · **#79**

I think the forcing sequence 88-93 was good to create some aji in sente. At move 94, you can go back and defend the corner. B does not appear to have a severe attack on your cutting stones, and by living they will erase any potential B territory in this area.

Opening another battle front at move 94 seems like an overplay. First, if B gets a reasonable result in sente, which seems likely, he can go back to kill your corner. Second, you now have three weak groups on the board, so the danger is extreme. Third, your invasion takes a large risk to destroy a relatively small B territory. If you really want to play first in this area, I would prefer something like P6 or Q6, which safely expands your own position while reducing your opponent. Finally, I think you are well ahead on territory at this point, so safe conservative play seems warranted.

Bill Spight · **#80**

IMO the White invasion at R-17 is problematic.

Here is how I rank other alternatives.

1) The boshi at O-06. This play strengthens the White corner and threatens the Black side. Also, it is on the frontier of frameworks. White's framework is not so big, but White aims at L-05.

2) The one space jump at O-15. The frontier of frameworks. Definitely superior to the 3-3 invasion, IMO. Not as good as O-06, I think, because White is not so thin and Black is stronger on the upper right side.

3) The invasion at R-08. Problematic because of White's thinness, but Black is not as strong on the lower right as on the upper right. Still better than the R-17 invasion, for that reason.

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who is online