Who stands better in this fuseki?

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:07 pm

@bill: Is this your idea?

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Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that, given the Black wall, White should make a base.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:55 pm

Here's another situation that often occurs in one way or another in my Split Fusekis where I don't know if I play sound. Please jump to move 87. I am interested in the situation on the right side and I wanna know basically what to do here as White and if my approach (move 88-94) was OK or not. I think it was not OK, because my upper right goup is potentially dead and I should have made sure it lives.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:17 pm

I think the forcing sequence 88-93 was good to create some aji in sente. At move 94, you can go back and defend the corner. B does not appear to have a severe attack on your cutting stones, and by living they will erase any potential B territory in this area.

Opening another battle front at move 94 seems like an overplay. First, if B gets a reasonable result in sente, which seems likely, he can go back to kill your corner. Second, you now have three weak groups on the board, so the danger is extreme. Third, your invasion takes a large risk to destroy a relatively small B territory. If you really want to play first in this area, I would prefer something like P6 or Q6, which safely expands your own position while reducing your opponent. Finally, I think you are well ahead on territory at this point, so safe conservative play seems warranted.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:32 pm

IMO the White invasion at R-17 is problematic.

Here is how I rank other alternatives.

1) The boshi at O-06. This play strengthens the White corner and threatens the Black side. Also, it is on the frontier of frameworks. White's framework is not so big, but White aims at L-05.

2) The one space jump at O-15. The frontier of frameworks. Definitely superior to the 3-3 invasion, IMO. Not as good as O-06, I think, because White is not so thin and Black is stronger on the upper right side.

3) The invasion at R-08. Problematic because of White's thinness, but Black is not as strong on the lower right as on the upper right. Still better than the R-17 invasion, for that reason.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:19 pm

Luckily for White, Black kills himself with 121 at O3. If Black continues as below what does White do?

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But all this drama should have been avoided by Black. Instead of wasting time connecting at P11 with 115, shouldn't Black just hane at T7 below? If White cuts, Black has time to capture the stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . O | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O X 1 | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . . . X O O 2 | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . O O O X X . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yet all this was unreasonable for Black I think. White's extension at 106 looks slack. What about the hane below? The ladder if Black cuts and plays a second atari looks broken to me. Black has no time to rescue the two key stones on the side.

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ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:02 am

Oops! My mistake. In the last variation above the ladder after two pushes is broken but the one after three pushes works! I think that White has some problems here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O . . | $$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:34 am

Can you play q13 at r13 ?

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:42 am

To take a shot at this without looking at the answers:
I think at 22 black stands better. Territory seems even but it's black's turn and the lonely black stone seems better placed (in terms of territory) than the lonely white stone. (Though I got to give that the white top has the largest potential.)

And now to read up on the "solution"

.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:35 pm

I have this new idea to play 6 instead of making a base on the right side or approaching another stone and wonder if it's a playable thing or a distaster (it's obviously not the best move available). I played a little around and can't see a clear refutation, can u show a sequence that punishes White? (p.s.: If a from black then b from White)

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Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 7 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reference diagram $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:09 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]%%w $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:00 pm

Pippen wrote:
That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?

I think you are mistaken. That lower right is going to play a much bigger part in the game than you realize.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:16 pm

you're super mistaken

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:50 am

All of black's stones look sensible but 1 of white's looks silly.

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Who stands better in this fuseki?

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