Reading books to improve?

[fstop]

Please tell me, how many go books do you read, and how does it relate to your go skill? Is it possible to improve by reading a lot even if you don't play that much?

I know that playing is the best way to improve, but I want your opinion and personal experience on the mater of books.

Thanks

[Boidhre]

Problem books can be nice, I have noticed improvements in reading from going through them. I've a fair few and don't do them in any specific order. Theory books are really interesting but I'm not sure they help me very much (I'm around your stated level, might be different for much stronger players). I did improve from reading two basic books that (at least partially) dealt with simple opening theory. I think it was because they were easier ideas to implement straight away (not perfectly or anything) whereas most theory books aren't going to pay off as quickly. A joseki book or resource is nice for research after games to look for mistakes I made. Commented games are fun but I'm not convinced I gain much from going through them.


Regarding reading vs playing, I read a quote in one go book that stuck with me: (paraphrasing) "No one can expect to become a master in secret." It would be very hard to learn from the books without trying to apply the knowledge in games because it's there you figure out that you didn't quite understand what you read.

[EdLee]

improve by reading a lot even if you don't play that much?

Hi fstop,

I think it's possible, but not easy.

For beginners (say, kyu levels),
a big imbalance between text-reading and playing
is similar to other areas like golf, swimming, bicycling, learning the piano, boxing, drawing, open heart surgery , etc.
Think how far you can get in those actitivites with insufficient practice.

Thought experiment: suppose you do many Go problems,
and hone your reading skills to solving high-dan problems with ease.
If so, that's great. But even in this case, I think you still need to play sufficient actual games.

My $0.02.

[RobertJasiek]

Before I started reading books, I was stuck in the DDK range. As soon as I started reading books (mainly theory books), I jumped to 3 dan within 17 months. My later improvement to 5d was mainly due to books. So do I recommend reading books and especially theory books? Of course.

A few books were sufficient to become 5k. To 1k, I read probably over 100 books but I think that many are not necessary because over 90 of them contained less information altogether than then best 10. From 1k to 5d, I must have read another 400+ books but the problem is that there were hardly any theory books for dan players (nowadays, it is slightly better), so it was similar: 360 books conveyed less contents altogether than the best 40 books. Hence, while it is not necessary to read that many books, it is essential to read the right books.

Especially from 1k to 3d, I read also problem books for improving my tactical reading skill. For this purpose only, problem books are also necessary - otherwise theory books are much more valuable.

Books is not the only means to become stronger. Other important means include playing, discussing one's own play, reviewing one's own games, teaching, replaying pro games, improving one's go-game-related psychology especially for reducing blunders.

Is it possible to live without books? I have heard of one 6d who is reported to never have read any go book. Are you that one person? Unlikely. For almost every player, books are your bread and butter. If a player does not improve despite reading good books, it can mean that he does not apply their contents well, he has other weak go skills that block his improvement, he has reached his permanent skill limit, he does too little else for go or he invests too little time for go in general.

The worst advice I ever got (as a DDK) was not to read go books yet, funnily it came by the same club teacher who gave me the best advice ever: to learn from my own mistakes.

The answer to your question is: ABSOLUTELY.

[palapiku]

Before I started reading books, I was stuck in the DDK range. As soon as I started reading books (mainly theory books), I jumped to 3 dan within 17 months.

Sure, but how many games have you played during that time?

[RobertJasiek]

I do not recall the number of games, but it was only club games because I had no internet access yet. From 9k to 3d, I was supposed to do university study but what I mostly did was up to 14 - 16 hours per day (sometimes doing part of my university homework on my way to the go clubs), roughly 50% go study and 50% playing. So how many games did I play within the ca. 7 hours of playing per day? Depends on whether they were normal or blitz. Normal maybe 5. Blitz maybe dozens (oh, yes, we did sometimes play until 7 am). So an average of 10 games per day is a good guess.

[tentano]

Books help.

Which books help you, though... Even those of us who haven't devoured literature to the degree Robert has, have encountered the unfortunate truth that some books are not much help and some are a major influence which cause a breakthrough. That's not because some books are bad, but more because we're all different.

Going through problem sets repeatedly fixes your weak spots in reading, but that might not be what's holding you back. Theory books give large-scale ideas which you might never have thought of on your own, but maybe you already did and it doesn't help you any to see it in print. Joseki books might show you variations you can readily use, but there's no guarantee that helps you to the next level either.

I'd say going through books is like sifting through debris, looking for gold. If you don't search it, you will not have any gold. Before sifting, it just seems a mass of undefined material, with the gold not readily obvious.

It's definitely not possible to become great at go by merely studying, though. You must always apply what you learned, to get the hang of it. If you don't play, you can't calibrate yourself to use the new knowledge effectively, and it will sink away, wasting all your time spent studying.

Another important consideration is, what are you willing to do? Do you feel motivated to memorize joseki? Do you want to work through problems? Would you rather try to apply grand theories to your playing? Whatever you decide to focus on, make sure you're actually motivated to do it. Dragging yourself through things you'd rather not do is a waste of time, because you'll be going much slower and absorb the content very poorly.

And since books don't all come free, decide for yourself how much you intend to spend on this frivolous activity. You could spend several thousand (add some zeroes for Korean and Japanese currencies) on books and still have less than half (a quarter?) of what's out there.

[oca]

This is how I split my "go time" :

#1 If I have time to play a game on a "real" goban, I do that one first.
In other worls, I prefer to go to the go club than playing on internet.
spent time : 1h30, once a week

#2 If I have time to play a game on the internet, I do that in priority.
spent time : 2 hours per week

#3 If at home and no time for a game, I read a book.
spent time : ? ... a few hours per week I would say

#4 If I have 'only' something like 20 min, I usually
- Read a (go)book
- practice problems/joseki with 'easygo'
- watch a video (bakmovies)
- or rarely play against the iphone (crazy stone)
spent time : every working day, in the train, 2x20 min.

[edit]
So to come back to your question, I must say that I spend most of my time reading book, mainly because of the time I spent in the train.

The problem is now that reading, memorizing and applying "correctly" are really 3 diffrents things for me....
[/edit]

[DrStraw]

There is another form of study beyond reading books, which is often overlooked. I read a lot of books on my way to 1d but I also spent a lot of time just putting stones on the board by quickly playing out made up games. That way I got to control what aspects of my recent reading showed up on the board and I was able to expose myself to more situations. I would just play out one of these games in ten minutes, clear the board and start again. I really think that this helped me a lot when I was trying to digest the new ideas presented in the reading material. During my kyu days I would think the division was 30-40% playing, 50-60% reading any printed material I could find (there wasn't a lot back then) and about 10% just throwing stones out onto the board.

This throwing stones out allowed me to see many mistakes which I would not have seen in real games. It helped me decide what to avoid in a game as well as what did work.

[andreyl]

To be honest I didnt really use books till 2-3k.
I dont think one needs to spend money on books/teachers till the late SDK level,there are a lot of free teachers/reviewers for kyu players on kgs teaching ladder.

[Charles Matthews]

I believe skilful use of a go database can be a substitute for some book study. But if you read no books or commented go literature, you probably have a hard time understanding much of what a database gives you. And/or you may find it harder to ask the right questions.

There are probably not that many books that can really help the average club player, though, without some advice from a stronger player also.

[Bill Spight]

Please tell me, how many go books do you read, and how does it relate to your go skill?

I have about 100 go books, and I haven't read them all. Several are not books for reading.

I imagine that if I had not read a single go book or magazine, I would be around 3 stones weaker. But I would have picked up ideas from other players instead of from reading.

Is it possible to improve by reading a lot even if you don't play that much?

When I was a kid I learned chess and go mainly by reading and studying. I grew up in a town of about 15,000 where there were not many chess players. Bridge was popular, and there was a local club that met on Thursday nights, but my parents did not let me play on a school night until my senior year in high school. By then I was the best chess player in town, which does not mean much, and the second best bridge player. Translating into go strength, I reckon I was 2 kyu or so at bridge. I had read maybe 5 bridge books. I dealt out a lot of hands and studied them.

I know that playing is the best way to improve, but I want your opinion and personal experience on the mater of books.

Who says that playing is the best way to improve? Playing can solidify bad habits. Playing against stronger players is one of the best ways to improve. 3 to 5 stones stronger is a good range. Reviewing your own games is one of the best ways to improve. Studying pro games is one of the best ways to improve.

Whether you play or read, the main thing is to think. To study a pro game without a book, get a computer file that you can play out. Spend at least 30 sec. thinking about each move before you play it. If the next move is obvious, think about the whole board and possible plays later on. About books, I often joke that I only look at the pictures. Here is one way to approach a go book. Study each diagram. What is going on? What is the point, if it is a game variation or problem solution? Then look at the relevant text. It is very important to do your own thinking first, and then have it reinforced or corrected.

Good luck!

[Cassandra]

Whether you play or read, the main thing is to think. To study a pro game without a book, get a computer file that you can play out. Spend at least 30 sec. thinking about each move before you play it. If the next move is obvious, think about the whole board and possible plays later on.

Once I read about a professional's opinion about this subject (replaying professional games).

She said that it does not really matter if you do not have a commentary on a game. Just because you will not understand professional thinking at your level, even if you had one available.

However, it would be mandatory that YOU find YOUR justification for every move played. Or at least try to do so ...

It does not matter if YOUR justification is really "correct". Most important is that YOU understand YOUR motivation for playing a move shown.

[xed_over]

However, it would be mandatory that YOU find YOUR justification for every move played. Or at least try to do so ...

It does not matter if YOUR justification is really "correct". Most important is that YOU understand YOUR motivation for playing a move shown.

I've always felt this way, but have not had the skills to backup by position.

[Bill Spight]

However, it would be mandatory that YOU find YOUR justification for every move played. Or at least try to do so ...

It does not matter if YOUR justification is really "correct". Most important is that YOU understand YOUR motivation for playing a move shown.

I've always felt this way, but have not had the skills to backup by position.

Well, it's OK if you can't figure out why the pro made a play. Understanding is not an either/or thing. Maybe you will understand the play better the next time you study the game.