Reading books to improve?

[tentano]

I've always wondered at the wealth of "introduction to go" titles.

I imagine a grandfather gives such a book to a grandchild, who sets it on a shelf, never to be touched for any other purpose than dusting off the shelf. Are there grandchildren who have several of this kind of book?

Or perhaps it's like the people who buy a "teach yourself ukulele" video with matching instrument, which then both gradually migrate into the attic. Good for sales, but the next Shimabukuro is not thus created.

[Boidhre]

I've always wondered at the wealth of "introduction to go" titles.

I imagine a grandfather gives such a book to a grandchild, who sets it on a shelf, never to be touched for any other purpose than dusting off the shelf. Are there grandchildren who have several of this kind of book?

Or perhaps it's like the people who buy a "teach yourself ukulele" video with matching instrument, which then both gradually migrate into the attic. Good for sales, but the next Shimabukuro is not thus created.

Isn't it the same for everything?

[tentano]

Well, wouldn't you assume that after the first three or four or so, you could accept that maybe that base has been covered?

It's probably not that awful in English, but in Japanese there's an enormous amount of them. It's really quite astonishing how much introducing is deemed necessary. Literally dozens of books published in the past ten years alone.

I'm fairly sure it's still the same game it was in 2005, which hasn't seen any major changes which would render prior introductory material obsolete. I don't really see any major didactic breakthrough in that time, either. I'm even more certain that humans are still the same species, too.

They must sell, though. Why else would so many books get funding?

[Codexus]

It's the same with language learning. The introductory books are the ones that make real money.

[Boidhre]

Well, wouldn't you assume that after the first three or four or so, you could accept that maybe that base has been covered?

It's probably not that awful in English, but in Japanese there's an enormous amount of them. It's really quite astonishing how much introducing is deemed necessary. Literally dozens of books published in the past ten years alone.

I'm fairly sure it's still the same game it was in 2005, which hasn't seen any major changes which would render prior introductory material obsolete. I don't really see any major didactic breakthrough in that time, either. I'm even more certain that humans are still the same species, too.

They must sell, though. Why else would so many books get funding?

The general rule is: beginner books and other materials can be cheaper/faster to put together than material for more advanced learners and/or they can have a much larger market to tap into because the number of people who decide to learn guitar will always be much, much larger than the number who get to an advanced level. So you tend to see more beginner books/cheap guitars made/introduction to yoga videos than are strictly necessary as a lot of publishers/makers chase this market.

[tentano]

Ah, so I should then rejoice at this clear indication of enduring interest.

A non-zero percentage of the people who buy or are gifted these books will go on to become lifelong players, after all.

[Codexus]

Ah, so I should then rejoice at this clear indication of enduring interest.

A non-zero percentage of the people who buy or are gifted these books will go on to become lifelong players, after all.

Absolutely. I like to think of it as a pyramid. At the top you have the pro players, and then as you go down the pyramid it gets more and more casual.

At the very bottom, you have people who just know that the game exists but don't know the rules and just above people who have barely learned them and played once or twice. One might think they don't really matter but if that base isn't large enough, it's really hard to build a tall pyramid...

[tentano]

That's an interesting thing you mention, there.

If the people who are made merely aware of the existence of go also count as part of the pyramid, I've widened the base a lot more than I thought.

[Bantari]

have been told the same by some of the very strong Asian players I have run into, mostly Japanese and Koreans - they say they had little use for books, never read them much, only for tsume-go and replaying pro games.

Of course. This is so because there are almost no theory books for very strong players. I have been stuck at my current playing level also because I have reached the end of "easy" learning by just reading suitable theory books. (Tsumego and pro games offer something for also the strongest players. So these I study and learn from because there is not the much more efficient study source books. However, discovering further hidden concepts equals doing research and so is very slow.)

Hmm...
My point is that most (it not all) of the strong asian players got to your level without any books, and went far above your level also without any books. So while books (and by extension - theories) are certainly useful (or are they?), they are by no means necessary - maybe not even optimal as a learning method.

I understand what you say about "easy learning". In one way or another, most of us are slaves to the "easy" way. You say you are "stuck" - but many are not. So maybe this is something peculiar to you, rather than generall applicable truth?

Still, I wonder... is the mere fact that it is made so "easy" hampering us in the long run?
Like the athletes, then don't get to be really good by only doing exercises the "easy" way...
Is categorizing and quantifying really the best way to do it, even if it might be the easiest?

It brings me back to the question: what is the basis of true strength? Is it conscious understanding, like lerning math? Is it subconscious resources, like speaking a language or riding a bike? Or is it a combination of both? And if so, which side is the prevalent one?

Questions, questions...
I wish there were some strong players in here to comment on that.

[John Fairbairn]

I have been told the same by some of the very strong Asian players I have run into, mostly Japanese and Koreans - they say they had little use for books, never read them much, only for tsume-go and replaying pro games.

This has to be taken with a very large pinch of salt. After all, Go Seigen got two bent index fingers from reading books so much. And all pros can quote the proverbs at you - they got most of them from books. We also know this from autobiographies.

You need to visualise the oriental go scene. Leaving aside the pro teacher-pupil system, which is a special hot-house atmosphere, strong oriental amateurs differ in a few ways from the western variety. One is that they read the magazines (and the best books tend to be distillations or reprints of magazine series). The other - no doubt reflecting numbers of people available - is that they tend to talk about the game with each other a lot. This is a form of reading - getting knowledge from other people's words.

In my experience this rarely happens among western players. I imagine that a good part of the reason is there are so few strong players that most of the time they are the big fish in little ponds, and they only get together at tournaments. There they do talk amongst each other, but from what I have observed they are (a) very cagey with each other (who's the biggest fish?) and (b) they concentrate on tactics.

In the CJK scene as I have observed it, strong players roam in what we might call mini-gangs and the gang has an acknowledged leader or two - which helps a lot, I find. Furthermore, they very often talk about strategy (or theory, as RJ would have it) and are very free with dispensing advice to each other and to weaker players. It seems to be regarded as a social obligation. They also often talk about what's in the latest mags. Often a club is affiliated to a particular Ki-in and gets that organisations magazines free, and these are always in use - but no-one has actually bought them. Almost all clubs I have seen also have a large supply of books for loan, so again a strong player may claim he hasn't bought a book but he has probably read it.

Of course CJK clubs also often enjoy visits from pros, semi-pros and local pros, so again there is talk, which again amounts to reading.

Obviously, it's not always quite that clear cut. For example some players will belong to more than one "gang", or they may be well off enough to pay for pro lessons (or, more commonly, have a job/patron what will pay). But I think the above accurately conveys how the balance is tilted the opposite way to us.

Naturally, really strong players concentrate on tsumego and game collections, along with study groups - that's just because they are strong enough to dispense with the fundamentals.

For everyone else in CJK, ordinary book knowledge is important, however it is acquired - from books or people.

[RobertJasiek]

Bantari, for categorising versus subconscious thinking see our old discussions. However, both, if only knowledge IS presented in books / journals / verbal discussion, share the same: they distribute knowledge instead of hiding it. This is the key because it is very much easier to learn from conveyed knowledge than to learn from hidden knowledge.

John, it is interesting that you describe strong Asian players as discussing knowledge because we have previously learnt about, or seen, weaker Asian players to do little more than, to exaggerate a little, pointing out one opening mistake after their game, then proceed to playing the next game. So it is good to hear that strong players are more serious about learning by sharing instead of hiding knowledge.

[Bantari]

However, both, if only knowledge IS presented in books / journals / verbal discussion, share the same: they distribute knowledge instead of hiding it.

This, or maybe it makes us reliant on books guiding us along and prevents us from being self-reliant instead.

One of my points is: you are "stuck" because there is no book which can guide you by the hand and spoon-feed you knowledge at the appropriate level and in appropriate fashion. While at the same time - others have surpassed you by far because they... what? Tried to figure things out for themselves? Found other ways? Not waited for being spoon-fed? Not relied on ready-made "theory" to explain everything? Maybe you can get further this way...

I am not really sure where I am going with all that. I am certainly not trying to poke at you personally, I share a lot of the sentiment myself. But it just makes me thing: is that my own shortcoming, my culture's? And if so, how do I fix it?

All in all, it is obvious to me that you can get tremendously good without thinking much about "theory" or "books". It might be that we, in the west, are not very open to such an unusal approach. We have been taught, from early on, certain specific ways to acquire knowledge - and it is hard for use to accept any other approach. But it does not mean there is no other approach, or that such approach is in any way inferior. It might be just a handicap of our upbringing and culture.

Just thinking out loud here...

PS>
A sidenote: books, in general, can be very good at hiding knowledge. Or twisting it...
Throughout history, books wre both helpful and destructive. Not sure where the balance lies.

[RobertJasiek]

While at the same time - others have surpassed you by far because they... what?

Apart from the many reasons I have explained many times elsewhere, because they get the knowledge I do not get because they have sufficient contact to people from whom they can get such knowledge even if it is passed only accidentally.

is that my own shortcoming, my culture's? And if so, how do I fix it?

I cannot know whether you actively try to seek new knowledge. If you don't, then it is also your own fault. Otherwise, it is a matter of gaining access to the hidden knowledge somehow. From what I have found out thus far, the hidden knowledge is mostly easy to fairly easy and so hard to discover on one's own exactly because of this reason. You can learn about (some of) the hidden knowledge in these manners:

1) Take such professional teachers that teach in your preferred learning style so that the hidden knowledge is spread to you. It does not suffice to take arbitrary professional teachers - they need to speak your methodical learning language.

2) Have much contact to very strong amateurs (as strong as professional players) and discuss a lot with them. Probably they have (some of) the hidden knowledge subconsciously and your task is to perceive it nevertheless. If you are lucky, you meet such players who can teach you some hidden knowledge explicitly.

3) Study professional games and research in them for the sake of discovering hidden knowledge on your own. Possibly compare your own games with professional games.

4) Learn from me. In the meantime, I have discovered some of the hidden knowledge. More I will make available later. I can already tell you: it is about (advanced) fundamentals. Some advanced fundamentals have been hidden. - Also simply fundamentals everybody should know play a very great role: When I play even or handicap 2 games against amateur 7d or professionally ranked players and lose, I lose because I neglect basic fundamentals, such as not defending my important weaknesses. When my opponents of such games lose, they lose because they neglect basic fundamentals, such as playing safe when ahead by positional judgement or failing to complicate the game when I can (and then do) win by good endgame.

All in all, it is obvious to me that you can get tremendously good without thinking much about "theory" or "books".

Wrong. Each stronger player, whose play I watch or study, I notice is aware of the knowledge that has for a long time been hidden to me and that most players weaker than me do not know yet. It does not matter whether the stronger players have that knowledge explicitly or subconsciously, but they do apply the theory correctly.

A sidenote: books, in general, can be very good at hiding knowledge. Or twisting it...
Throughout history, books wre both helpful and destructive. Not sure where the balance lies.

Books teaching their knowledge explicitly are weak at hiding it.

[Krama]

While at the same time - others have surpassed you by far because they... what?

Apart from the many reasons I have explained many times elsewhere, because they get the knowledge I do not get because they have sufficient contact to people from whom they can get such knowledge even if it is passed only accidentally.

is that my own shortcoming, my culture's? And if so, how do I fix it?

I cannot know whether you actively try to seek new knowledge. If you don't, then it is also your own fault. Otherwise, it is a matter of gaining access to the hidden knowledge somehow. From what I have found out thus far, the hidden knowledge is mostly easy to fairly easy and so hard to discover on one's own exactly because of this reason. You can learn about (some of) the hidden knowledge in these manners:

1) Take such professional teachers that teach in your preferred learning style so that the hidden knowledge is spread to you. It does not suffice to take arbitrary professional teachers - they need to speak your methodical learning language.

2) Have much contact to very strong amateurs (as strong as professional players) and discuss a lot with them. Probably they have (some of) the hidden knowledge subconsciously and your task is to perceive it nevertheless. If you are lucky, you meet such players who can teach you some hidden knowledge explicitly.

3) Study professional games and research in them for the sake of discovering hidden knowledge on your own. Possibly compare your own games with professional games.

4) Learn from me. In the meantime, I have discovered some of the hidden knowledge. More I will make available later. I can already tell you: it is about (advanced) fundamentals. Some advanced fundamentals have been hidden. - Also simply fundamentals everybody should know play a very great role: When I play even or handicap 2 games against amateur 7d or professionally ranked players and lose, I lose because I neglect basic fundamentals, such as not defending my important weaknesses. When my opponents of such games lose, they lose because they neglect basic fundamentals, such as playing safe when ahead by positional judgement or failing to complicate the game when I can (and then do) win by good endgame.

All in all, it is obvious to me that you can get tremendously good without thinking much about "theory" or "books".

Wrong. Each stronger player, whose play I watch or study, I notice is aware of the knowledge that has for a long time been hidden to me and that most players weaker than me do not know yet. It does not matter whether the stronger players have that knowledge explicitly or subconsciously, but they do apply the theory correctly.

A sidenote: books, in general, can be very good at hiding knowledge. Or twisting it...
Throughout history, books wre both helpful and destructive. Not sure where the balance lies.

Books teaching their knowledge explicitly are weak at hiding it.

This sounds like the snake oil of go knowledge.

Do you have any examples of this hidden knowledge?

It sounds like this one guy who walks in your club and tells you they have been studying go in chinese mountains with a great master who has this secred knowledge about go and now this dude right in front of you wants to sell you this hidden knowledge

I don't want to sound arrogant or aggressive but I believe all the knowledge from pros can be found in books written by the same pros.

[John Fairbairn]

I don't want to sound arrogant or aggressive but I believe all the knowledge from pros can be found in books written by the same pros.

In practice this must be wrong. I mentioned recently a couple of important series I'd seen, one from the 1930s and one from the 1950, on te-ire and on moving from large to small boundary plays. Both, especially the latter, present important knowledge that is just not available in the west. But more to the point, I have never seen books on these topics in recent decades from Japan, or ever in the case of Korea and China. So the knowledge may in theory be on paper, for those few who have the old magazines, but for 99% of players it is "hidden" as RJ likes to say I'd prefer something like "discoverable" because he usually implies the pros are hiding it deliberately.

On that last point, there is another factor that complicates things for westerners. Most go knowledge exists in go books but is difficult to discover because of cultural factors. We tend to expect knowledge in bite-sized chunks that we can swallow at once. The Japanese in particular have usually been more concerned with "formation" (French sense), and rather than trying to inculcate facts they want to inculcate attitude. Once the right attitude has been instilled you are on the "Way" of go and can proceed, even on your own, at a decent pace. Westerners lose momentum by stopping to pick the flowers all the time.

That said, I think Japan itself has had a long and troubled period after the 1950s and up to the present day in reconciling their traditional approach with the western approach. For obvious reasons the western approach has been fairly prominent lately, and in go, if you want to see the closest that the Japanese have produced to what we expect to see, look out for anything by Kobayashi Satoru. I've only seen it in magazine form, but it's outstanding. It's also not a bad idea to look for anything in Japanese by Taiwanese-born pros. They seem to be more in tune with us.

However, again it is hard for most westerners to get access to this information, and in my macro view of the go world it's made even harder by the fact that a selfish few have made it not worth publishing go books in English.