It's those L groups again!oca wrote:
Thanks Uberdude, Actualy I missed that 'b' was not unconditionally alive...
OCA's log
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Uberdude
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Re: OCA's log
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Cannot resists to post that position of a game between My daugther (8 years old) which is white and my son (6 years old)
not a really common opening is it ?
I think I will choose black here...
not a really common opening is it ?
I think I will choose black here...
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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
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Bill Spight
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Re: OCA's log
I expect that Black won that game. But I think that White shows more promise.oca wrote:Cannot resists to post that position of a game between My daugther (8 years old) which is white and my son (6 years old)
not a really common opening is it ?
I think I will choose black here...
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Let's get back to joseki with :
Joskei #4
So... what did i know about this one...
Maybe the first thing I'm happy to know is that the hane at
doesn't work for black... and 
make things even worse... the order seems important too, 
must be played before the cut at 
Back to the original joseki,
It seems also that
can still wake up and be quite annoying later... when I'm black I ofen endsup playing at 'a' but then lose the sente...
I also ofen see black at 'b' followed by white 'c' at the end of that joseki, I use to read somewhere that black at 'b' is sente, but I don't remember exactly why...
Joskei #4
So... what did i know about this one...
Maybe the first thing I'm happy to know is that the hane at
doesn't work for black... and make things even worse... the order seems important too, must be played before the cut at Back to the original joseki,
It seems also that
can still wake up and be quite annoying later... when I'm black I ofen endsup playing at 'a' but then lose the sente...I also ofen see black at 'b' followed by white 'c' at the end of that joseki, I use to read somewhere that black at 'b' is sente, but I don't remember exactly why...
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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skydyr
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Re: OCA's log
Sometimes it's good to hold off on B because you don't know what you want to do in the future, but it's somewhat sente because black can attach at C as a followup to mostly confine white to the corner. D is another similar sente move, that black might have wanted instead of B, which is why you hold off.oca wrote:Let's get back to joseki with :
Joskei #4
So... what did i know about this one...
Maybe the first thing I'm happy to know is that the hane at
Back to the original joseki,
It seems also that
I also ofen see black at 'b' followed by white 'c' at the end of that joseki, I use to read somewhere that black at 'b' is sente, but I don't remember exactly why...
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Thanks skydyr,skydyr wrote: ...
Sometimes it's good to hold off on B because you don't know what you want to do in the future, but it's somewhat sente because black can attach at C as a followup to mostly confine white to the corner. D is another similar sente move, that black might have wanted instead of B, which is why you hold off.
Sure this one is really fine if
tenuki
I finally remembered where I read the other idea... that was in "So you want to play GO vol. 3"so if
, white should not tenuki because that may lead to this one :Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Uberdude
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Re: OCA's log
Or thickly block the centre, and white runs into hane at head of two bad shape if he extends (so might play 4 at a):oca wrote: I finally remembered where I read the other idea... that was in "So you want to play GO vol. 3"
so if
Playing the knight's move prematurely is a very common mistake I see around sdk levels. The reason it can be a mistake is if white simply answers black still has various shape weaknesses as marked, and white gets stronger on the left side so black reduces his potential there (no more side approach as in diagram above, which is often a better move). However, white's answer can sometimes be too slow, it depends a lot on the lower side and how impressive a moyo black is building there: if that area becomes a huge territory probably answer was too slow, but if white has a good chance to invade or reduce it later then white can happily answer patiently knowing black is not gaining as much as white does from the exchange. Using those weaknesses to do things inside later requires good sabaki skills, here is a nice example to study: http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/game/5737?move=31 .
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Thanks for that example... that's really outstanding... how can they read that ahead...Uberdude wrote: ...
here is a nice example to study: http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/game/5737?move=31 .
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Joskei #5
This is one of my favorite joseki, both as black or white, especially when there is a san-ren-sei.
I like the shape formed by
and 
I also know this variation, but I prefer the first one :
Also saw this one from time to time, but still prefer the first variation
I like the shape formed by
and I also know this variation, but I prefer the first one :
Also saw this one from time to time, but still prefer the first variation
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
back to Joseki #1,
I'm trying to calculate the value of 'a' to better judge when it's worth to play that move.
I'm sure my method is not 100%, but here is my calculation...
If black plays first :
black 8
white 0
so black +8
If white play first :
black 0
white 4
so white +4
so is 'a' 12 pts ? but black is a tenuki in that variation... so how to calculate that 
Any idea ?
[edit]
Here is a game I have found on ps.waltheri.net
http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/g ... 1?move=100
on that game, the move was number 100, that's later then I excpected...
[/edit]
I'm trying to calculate the value of 'a' to better judge when it's worth to play that move.
I'm sure my method is not 100%, but here is my calculation...
If black plays first :
black 8
white 0
so black +8
If white play first :
black 0
white 4
so white +4
so is 'a' 12 pts ? but black
is a tenuki in that variation... so how to calculate that Any idea ?
[edit]
Here is a game I have found on ps.waltheri.net
http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/g ... 1?move=100
on that game, the move was number 100, that's later then I excpected...
[/edit]
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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skydyr
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Re: OCA's log
You have to also judge whether A is sente or gote, and remember to add the value of the followups... full value for sente followups and, traditionally, half value for gote ones.oca wrote:back to Joseki #1,
I'm trying to calculate the value of 'a' to better judge when it's worth to play that move.
I'm sure my method is not 100%, but here is my calculation...
If black plays first :
black 8
white 0
so black +8
If white play first :
black 0
white 4
so white +4
so is 'a' 12 pts ? but black
Any idea ?
[edit]
Here is a game I have found on ps.waltheri.net
http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/g ... 1?move=100
on that game, the move was number 100, that's later then I excpected...
[/edit]
This particular example, while common, is not a trivial exercise by any means.
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Thank you skydyr,
I just saw in a book that the value would be more something like 16 pts instead of my 12 pts estimation... sure not an easy one to start counting.
I just saw in a book that the value would be more something like 16 pts instead of my 12 pts estimation... sure not an easy one to start counting.Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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EdLee
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Hi oca,
If W wants to reply, at (b).
If tenuki, B can play 
(a).
After , W has a few choices depending on the local and global situations:
From my experience only -- I cannot speak for others -- at these levels, it's usually fairly obvious
when it's big enough to play these moves. At least, I don't remember even one situation
that stood out as being difficult to decide.
If W wants to reply,
at (b).If
tenuki, B can play (a).
After , W has a few choices depending on the local and global situations:
From my experience only -- I cannot speak for others -- at these levels, it's usually fairly obviouswhen it's big enough to play these moves. At least, I don't remember even one situation
that stood out as being difficult to decide.
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oca
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Re: OCA's log
Hi Edlee,
Here are two situations, starting with a double nin-ren-sei
In both situation, let's say the disucssed end game move ( in first diagram and in the second one) is played (way) too early...
In both diagrams, by some kind of 'reflex move' I'm quite sure that I would have replyed at 'a'
In the first diagram, 'b' to 'e' are other ideas that should be better, as I think the best reply to an early end game move is to ignore it...
'b' looks nice, but how to 'mesure' that this is a more valuable move then 'a' ?
I think one answer is "Common sense" / experience / intuition, but I would like to quantify that, just to help me becoming more confident when ignoring early end game move...
Here are two situations, starting with a double nin-ren-sei
In both situation, let's say the disucssed end game move (
in first diagram and in the second one) is played (way) too early...In both diagrams, by some kind of 'reflex move' I'm quite sure that I would have replyed at 'a'
In the first diagram, 'b' to 'e' are other ideas that should be better, as I think the best reply to an early end game move is to ignore it...
'b' looks nice, but how to 'mesure' that this is a more valuable move then 'a' ?
I think one answer is "Common sense" / experience / intuition, but I would like to quantify that, just to help me becoming more confident when ignoring early end game move...
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Uberdude
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Re: OCA's log
Do you really need numbers to prefer this:
to this?
It's worth saying that black's answer in the corner at 7 is a smaller move than white's 6 there, so it's a bigger mistake.
P.S. Here was an interesting thread a while ago where some people wanted to play a biggish endgame move instead of a more opening type move elsewhere: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =15&t=7766
to this?
It's worth saying that black's answer in the corner at 7 is a smaller move than white's 6 there, so it's a bigger mistake.
P.S. Here was an interesting thread a while ago where some people wanted to play a biggish endgame move instead of a more opening type move elsewhere: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =15&t=7766
Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.