In light of that, I personally find it interesting that beginners at Go are told "Go play a lot first!" and "Go do exercises" BEFORE they get bogged down in ideas.
OC, I encourage beginners to play. But if they want to improve quickly, I advise them to play against stronger opponents. And to review their games. (During my first year of play my weakest opponent was a 5 kyu. I have no regrets about that. And we went over almost every game.)
Hmmm, exactly how typical is that?
It was typical when I lived in Tokyo, it was typical when I lived in Hawaii. It was not typical when I moved to New Mexico, aside from my own games, as I was giving handicaps. My impression is that it is not typical in the West.
The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Bill Spight wrote:Well, I suppose that that explains why I haven't improved much lately. Not bored enough.
Well, if you don't feel like the effort is worth the gain, that's your choice.
Luckily, none of our lives rest on this game.
If you happen to know of a pleasant, easy, gentle and highly entertaining way to improve, I would love to know about it though.
LMAO! Well that produced a ringingly deep silence.
Sheesh...if I wanted something pleasant, easy, gentle and highly entertaining...I'd go join an aerobics group or something.
Hard is fine. Bewildering is fine. Slow to give up its secrets is fine. Just need that rush of pleasure from doing something right...and actually winning a game one of these days...!
Working on losing those 100 first games...one horrible fiasco at a time...
Shako wrote:Hard is fine. Bewildering is fine. Slow to give up its secrets is fine. Just need that rush of pleasure from doing something right...and actually winning a game one of these days...!
Learn from losses. Review them yourself (find three big mistakes if you can) or throw them up here or the Go Teaching Ladder for a review then go into your next game and apply what you've learned. Do go problems. Rinse, repeat. Add theory books later on.
Bill Spight wrote:Well, I suppose that that explains why I haven't improved much lately. Not bored enough.
Well, if you don't feel like the effort is worth the gain, that's your choice.
Luckily, none of our lives rest on this game.
If you happen to know of a pleasant, easy, gentle and highly entertaining way to improve, I would love to know about it though.
I know one. Play, talk to people, have fun. Easy, gentle, and highly entertaining. And best of all - you only do it when you feel like it, and as much as you feel like. What can be simpler?
- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!
tentano wrote:Well, if you don't feel like the effort is worth the gain, that's your choice.
Luckily, none of our lives rest on this game.
If you happen to know of a pleasant, easy, gentle and highly entertaining way to improve, I would love to know about it though.
I know one. Play, talk to people, have fun. Easy, gentle, and highly entertaining. And best of all - you only do it when you feel like it, and as much as you feel like. What can be simpler?
It comes with an added advantage if you keep it up reasonably regularly and don't gain a great deal of strength in the process: Failing to progress a couple of stones in a year doesn't bring with it a horrible sense of frustration, just happy memories
DrStraw wrote:There is another form of study beyond reading books, which is often overlooked. I read a lot of books on my way to 1d but I also spent a lot of time just putting stones on the board by quickly playing out made up games. That way I got to control what aspects of my recent reading showed up on the board and I was able to expose myself to more situations. I would just play out one of these games in ten minutes, clear the board and start again. I really think that this helped me a lot when I was trying to digest the new ideas presented in the reading material. During my kyu days I would think the division was 30-40% playing, 50-60% reading any printed material I could find (there wasn't a lot back then) and about 10% just throwing stones out onto the board.
This throwing stones out allowed me to see many mistakes which I would not have seen in real games. It helped me decide what to avoid in a game as well as what did work.
I've actually heard that Magnus Carlsen did exactly this when he was young. Just playing a lot of games with himself. It makes sense to me exactly for the reasons you describe. I admit I have done it a little bit but not much. Also, I don't think I have ever played an entire game of go against myself even at a quick rate, usually I don't go very deep.
Sometimes I go through a similar process with databases both for chess or go, just putting in moves that look natural and seeing what happens to the statistics. But of course although similar there are big differences there as well in that it I am really being guided by the ideas of others and not just letting my creativity and my own ideas about the game have free play.
Also, not to beat the idea into the ground or anything, but I also remember that in the gogod encyclopedia there was an article about nie wei ping. The idea was that during the cultural revolution weiqi was seen as reactionary so he would play games with himself in his head. Try that out!
fstop wrote:Please tell me, how many go books do you read, and how does it relate to your go skill? Is it possible to improve by reading a lot even if you don't play that much?
I know that playing is the best way to improve, but I want your opinion and personal experience on the mater of books.
Thanks
Go books i read: 0 How much it relates to my go skill: 0 Improve by reading without playing: Is it possible to be a good basketball player without playing basketball?
There are too many different styles and incorrect plays out there that books don't cover. You can't get far without actually playing.
The following books helped me a lot to get from 15k to 7k over the past few months:
Tesuji by James Davies Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo Attack and Defense by Ishida Akira
I just read and worked through these three books on a loop, doing one, then another, then another, then going back to the first, multiple times. Each time I got new things out of them. When I started there were plenty of things I didnt understand in them, that I got later from rereading.
Also do some daily level-appropriate Tsumego.
I've read some other books during this time as well but I didnt seem to get nearly as much out of those as I did from these three books. If you get tired of one of them switch to another and come back to it later. (Tesuji is a ton of work to get through, for example. Mixing it up is probably good).
How many slow games did you play in this process? I am curious if you play a lot or just read books? I seem to be stuck at 11k at the moment and trying to progress through Tesuji. I have finished Opening Theory Made Easy 2 times, but putting the principles into practice is another thing.
Alexfrog wrote:The following books helped me a lot to get from 15k to 7k over the past few months:
Tesuji by James Davies Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo Attack and Defense by Ishida Akira
I just read and worked through these three books on a loop, doing one, then another, then another, then going back to the first, multiple times. Each time I got new things out of them. When I started there were plenty of things I didnt understand in them, that I got later from rereading.
Also do some daily level-appropriate Tsumego.
I've read some other books during this time as well but I didnt seem to get nearly as much out of those as I did from these three books. If you get tired of one of them switch to another and come back to it later. (Tesuji is a ton of work to get through, for example. Mixing it up is probably good).
eksert wrote:I seem to be stuck at 11k at the moment and trying to progress through Tesuji.
I find it hard to discuss the route from 15k to 10k in detail. I think it is clear that you need contact with more experienced players to progress. The Japanese view seems only to recommend some rather basic problem material, perhaps because opponents are supposedly a given.
I would recommend reading early chapters of several books, rather than trying to finish one book of average club level, though. You should try to master snapbacks, and a few other fundamental shapes.
For shapes you suggest the book of 'Shape up'? One of my friends is 1 kyu at Kgs and told me he got 4 stones better after solving Tesuji (in 2 3 months). He was 12k before solving tesuji.
Charles Matthews wrote:
eksert wrote:I seem to be stuck at 11k at the moment and trying to progress through Tesuji.
I find it hard to discuss the route from 15k to 10k in detail. I think it is clear that you need contact with more experienced players to progress. The Japanese view seems only to recommend some rather basic problem material, perhaps because opponents are supposedly a given.
I would recommend reading early chapters of several books, rather than trying to finish one book of average club level, though. You should try to master snapbacks, and a few other fundamental shapes.
PlaySlow wrote:For shapes you suggest the book of 'Shape up'? One of my friends is 1 kyu at Kgs and told me he got 4 stones better after solving Tesuji (in 2 3 months). He was 12k before solving tesuji.
Actually, if we are talking about my own books, Teach Yourself Go (now Be a Master at Go: Teach Yourself) is designed to get players to 10 kyu. Shape Up! is meant for players 10 kyu to 5 kyu, if read according to the "simple course".
The study of shape interacts with the study of tesuji in quite an interesting way: but there are more chances to play "good shape" in a game than tesuji. How do you get into good positions? By taking key points, and playing better shapes than the opponent. But first you have to learn some basic shape concepts ...
And we went over almost every game.)
