Back on track

[Amelia]

This problem makes more sense. That double two space extension was weird, and because the double extension was so thin, was questionable, as was the answer given. And in this diagram the star point is correct.

You're right of course. I messed up the diagram and copy pasted the mistake everywhere
I corrected it now.

[tentano]

Ohshi-

Now I have to correct all of mine, too!!!

EDIT: Now look at how silly everyone else is, with their non-edited diagrams! Ha-ha!

[Bill Spight]

I'd rather see it as a discussion with a number of answers and some possible purposes of each explained.

Another one of those damn adults who wants to understand!

(See this note, http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 00#p184000 and the following discussion. )

[Bill Spight]

This problem makes more sense. That double two space extension was weird, and because the double extension was so thin, was questionable, as was the answer given. And in this diagram the star point is correct.

You're right of course. I messed up the diagram and copy pasted the mistake everywhere
I corrected it now.

Do not despise the small details; it is often in them that the idea of the position will be found.

[Amelia]

Do not despise the small details; it is often in them that the idea of the position will be found.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the contributions (despite the diagram typo ). A lot to think about!

[Boidhre]

@topaszg:

Oh, my point is that because of one missing stone, this isn't a ko. But if I had never considered the ko as an option, would I have seen that in this one specific case, it is not a ko?

Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 1 6 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O X 2 4 5 . . .
$$ | . . . O . O O X X B X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 1 6 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O X 2 4 5 . . .
$$ | . . . O . O O X X B X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is probably what black had in mind, for after but derped on the missing

$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . 2 1 5 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O O X X . X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . 2 1 5 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O O X X . X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is the docile response expected(?) by black. I can't win the ko, after all.

I looked at that, saw a cut and a shortage of liberties after it. Did a little reading and saw the cut worked. I don't think knowledge of the ko in a similar shape is that important here, you should see the shortage of liberties after the cut and that should encourage you to start reading it out as this combination should start the spidey senses tingling

Having memorised the ko here is a bad thing, you might glance and see what looks like the normal ko shape and not read out the cut.

[topazg]

I'd rather see it as a discussion with a number of answers and some possible purposes of each explained.

Another one of those damn adults who wants to understand!

(See this note, http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 00#p184000 and the following discussion. )

Hahaha, what an interesting read, and yes, guilty as charged. It is the attempt at understanding to better guide explicit choices that I find fun about the game, rather necessarily than any improvement in strength, so I'll happily continue being one too

[Amelia]

That was a week end with plenty of go

On Friday evening, I played topazg (thanks again!) and there are a number of interesting points to add to my study from that game. The first I'm going to work on are standard shapes in the corner. I even already have a book on the subject (but never properly studied it until now. I have too many books).

Then I went to the one and only local tournament, the Erlanger Go Turnier. As usual in tournaments, my results were poor, I won once and lost four games. Most were pretty close though. The toughest one happened to be against a cute 10 years old who not only dominated the board, but also demonstrated good sportsmanship. I'm looking forward to his future as a go player. (I'll be posting that game soon, but I recorded it on paper due to my tablet not working and I still have to create the sgf file).

The game below is the last one I played. The opening was a bit strange. I tried a sanrensei, which I otherwise hardly ever play and on top of that I was quite tired from the previous game.

[EdLee]

Hi Amelia,

Congrats on attending the tourney!

not good. Get rid of this bad habit.

don't follow your opponent around like a puppy. R7! was not good,
but his tenuki to gives you a chance to R7 and make a good move!

what's the status of W's group lower right corner ? Is W alive ? Did you consider killing W there ?

Speaking of learning your basic shapes, N17 here is a local, shared vital point.

Basic shapes are a very big problem for you right now (standard, common problems, for all of us around these levels ).

Example: this is truly bizarre. Can you find a better local move ?

103 another very strange move. Can you find a better local move ?

[Amelia]

Hi Ed, thanks for your comments!

I see why 13 is bad. But the problem here is that I find 12 confusing.
It appeared a couple of times in high handicap games and I played O4 or N4. I got no specific comments about those moves so I assume it's fine. I'm mapping out 4th line territory, nothing to complain about I guess, but are there other good options?

15: It seemed like a good opportunity to keep down a pretty low stone
17: Oh yes I did consider it, but I didn't think I could. I certainly could have harassed that group more in hindsight. At that point in the game I had my eyes on other points. Because he ignored my approach I wanted to go back to the lower left corner. I thought I could come back to it later. Not a great idea, since an attack on the lower right would probably have been sente all the way and given me some thickness. Instead those three stones are floating...

25: Mm, yeah, but I wanted to avoid being surrounded.

I'll look into 97 an 103 when I have a bit more time and a board.

[EdLee]

I see why 13 is bad. But the problem here is that I find 12 confusing.
It appeared a couple of times in high handicap games and I played O4 or N4. I got no specific comments about those moves so I assume it's fine.

Hi Amelia,

In reply to , o4 1-space jump is fine.
N4 2-space jump can be OK (but maybe not).
at R6 armpit hit is not good.

For R6 and N4, it's not so easy to explain their problems.
But let's try a little bit (below).

A few possibilities why your reviewers didn't comment on moves like or N4:

• They knew it's a problem, but decided not to comment.
• They thought there are much bigger mistakes.
• They didn't know what to say or how to explain it.
• They were not sure.
• They saw no problems with those moves.

You see, at Q7 is "far" (2 spaces) from your corner star point .
It's also 2 spaces away from your .
So has little pressure on either or .
The 1-space jump, o4, is a calm and reasonable reply.

The 2-space jump to N4 is also very calm.
And we cannot say it's bad. Maybe in 100 years,
it'll be as common and popular as o4. Who knows.
But we do know the 2-space jump (4th line) is thinner than o4.
It's not easy to "explain" this thinness --
you need some experience with this shape to start to understand its strengths and weaknesses.

I'm mapping out 4th line territory, nothing to complain about I guess, but are there other good options?

With at R6, the armpit hit, actually there are things to complain about.
You see, jumps in between your and --
so as soon as gets there, it's being pincered by your stones.
Locally, it's already under pressure from your and .
Locally, you see is a weak stone, sandwiched between and .
In this situation, I like to use an analogy:
is like a drowning enemy in the ocean,
and your and are standing (on a pier), watching drown by himself.
But if you make contact with him, with a move like R6 armpit hit,
or, a direct contact move like Q6,
I think of it like you sending another person
to jump into the water to "fight" with the drowning .
This is not a good idea. In this situation.
If you don't help him by touching him,
he has nothing to grab onto; he has to deal with it all by himself.
But if you send another person into the water, right next to him,
then suddenly he has a lot more options.
On the board, these options translate to ataris, cuts, etc.
If you don't touch him, it's impossible for him to make an atari (locally).
But as soon as you touch him -- say, and he replies by blocking at R7 --
notice you lose one liberty on your immediately --
now he is only 3 moves away from an atari on

In other words, with - R7,
you make W stronger -- W gains 1 liberty, from 4 to 5.
And your becomes weaker -- you lose 1 liberty, from 4 to 3.

Locally, R5 kosumi is better than R6 --
you still get your territory, but you don't contact ;
you don't make W stronger, and you don't reduce your own libs.

Both your at R6 and R5 kosumi are on the 3rd line,
so it's only 3rd line territory, not 4th line as you mentioned.

There are other reasons is not good.
Is the above similar to your understanding of why is bad ?

Important caveat: it really depends on the specific situation
whether you want to touch your enemy stones or not.
Don't get trapped by following proverbs blindly.
Proverbs such as: don't touch weak enemy stones -- it's a big trap.

You also didn't lose your game because of .
This is likely the #1 reason people kept quiet to you on moves like --
there are much much bigger fishes to fry.

[Amelia]

Hi Ed,

when talking about 4th line territory I meant O4 or N4, not R6 as in the game. I do understand, in hindsight, why 13 is bad.

I was wondering if I could find a more severe / better move than O4. From what you're saying I understand there is no effective direct attack against this stone for now because it's high and far from mine, and it's better to stay away for the moment (let it drown).

I need to try this out more. That move irritates me every time it shows up in a game. I don't have a feeling about it yet. (Ah, I remember... that's why I played 17. I wanted to see how he'd answer).

[EdLee]

when talking about 4th line territory I meant O4 or N4

Hi Amelia,

Ah, good it was brought up, so you can elaborate.
N4 or o4 is not 4th line territory !
( Hmm... misunderstandings at these levels. )

I understand there is no effective direct attack against this stone for now

It depends what you mean by "direct attack".
As soon as jumps between your and , it's already under attack.

I need to try this out more. That move irritates me every time it shows up in a game. I don't have a feeling about it yet.

Yea, you need some more experience with it. A lot more.

that's why I played 17. I wanted to see how he'd answer

Ah! Good you brought it up.
Your and his are different !
Please see also posts 19,20 of this game review .

[Amelia]

when talking about 4th line territory I meant O4 or N4

Hi Amelia,

Ah, good it was brought up, so you can elaborate.
N4 or o4 is not 4th line territory !
( Hmm... misunderstandings at these levels. )

Is that the "4th line is for influence, 3rd line is for territory" talk? Or is it the "that's not anywhere near safe territory yet" talk?

With what purpose would you play O4, if you played it?

that's why I played 17. I wanted to see how he'd answer

Ah! Good you brought it up.
Your and his are different !
Please see also posts 19,20 of this game review .

Yes, I'm aware. The approach stone alone makes a huge difference. Also the previous handicap games where I mentioned this move occured where of course different. But it is similar. The way I see it, the only way to develop a good understanding of a position is to experiment with it in many, many different contexts. If you only see one horse in your life, you will only know about one horse. If you encounter many horses, you will at some point understand more about horses in general, which ones you should ride, and which ones you shouldn't. Right?
I found a horse, so now I want to know more about horses. Not only this one horse that I encountered once and might never see again. So I try to find another horse and then I try to ride it. Even if it turns out to be in fact a cow, I'll still learn something valuable

there are much much bigger fishes to fry.

Sure. If you want to know, I'm currently in lesson 2 with Kaz and he's trying to teach me when to hane after a tsuke. Because it turns out often I don't when I should. And none of those moves were ever losing moves either, but it's a basic among the basics, something I have to know so I can build on it later. So that's what I'm studying most intensely at the moment. Tsuke, hane. But not always. You've got to know about the crosscut, and when it's bad for your opponent. And how to answer if he does it anyway. (And, and, and...) And then you can play the hane and do it right.
It's going to take a while.

[skydyr]

when talking about 4th line territory I meant O4 or N4

Hi Amelia,

Ah, good it was brought up, so you can elaborate.
N4 or o4 is not 4th line territory !
( Hmm... misunderstandings at these levels. )

Is that the "4th line is for influence, 3rd line is for territory" talk? Or is it the "that's not anywhere near safe territory yet" talk?

With what purpose would you play O4, if you played it?

Normally, when one approaches a 4-4 stone with a small-knight's move, part of the aim of the move is to open up the corner to a bigger invasion than is otherwise possible. The aji of the approach stone makes the 3-3 point bigger. When white approaches more distantly, as here, that aji works a lot less well, so having your opponent go in to the corner isn't something to fear: they will get a result that is locally bad.

Given that, one of your goals should be to attack the stone that white just impudently played into black's area of potential. It already will have trouble making a base, because it's can't make a good extension on either side. The one space jump to O4 looks to make the corner stone stronger, and aims at capping to seal or otherwise get white running out as a followup move. It applies more pressure to the white stone than the knight's move, and the solidity of the knight's move in the corner isn't necessary here.

The corner is still open, but as stated, it's not a problem because it will be smaller, and white's group on the outside will come under more severe attack as a result of taking it, since black will build thickness on the outside. The time to think about the corner is once white's group on the outside is relatively safe, at which point the invasion won't harm it. Then black can take gote to claim the corner, plus a lot of the bottom which he built via free moves while attacking.

In a sense, O4 is influence oriented, but it's more direct than that. It's quite clearly aimed at pressuring white's stone, making it difficult to live locally with a good result. Territory might come from it, but the territory is incidental, and white might choose to take the territory under it instead of saving the white stone or group at some point. Black's compensation will be the continuing attack on the original white stone/group or being able to kill it. Obviously, this will favour black in some cases, and white in others, depending on the state of the board when white makes that choice, but this early, it will favour black.

If black just wanted territory, black could play O3, but this is rather slow, meaning that with good play, white would develop faster over the board as a whole, leading to a harder game for black. In general, trying to claim territory directly, particularly early on, is inefficient because it takes too many moves to truly secure it. Efficient territory arises somewhat naturally through the process of fighting.