bilingualism and go strength

[John Fairbairn]

Even for natives there is a large range of variation, yet the dimmest native will know much more about these kinds of things than the typical fluent foreigner.

Bantari: since you quoted the above, may I assume you also read it?

I have been involved with languages professionally almost all my life. In my circles there is a big difference between bilingual (relatively rare) and fluent (very common). Fluency, commendable as it is, to me is only about language(-processing) skill. Being bilingual is rather about having a similar range of comfort as a native in all normal situations, a large proportion of that (as I implied) being from cultural accretions.

I repeat that I regard the difference as pertinent to the OP, as I'd regard amateur go levels as equivalent to 'fluent' and only upper pro levels as equivalent to "bilingual".

I might add, by the way, that I recognise that the word bilingual is being cheapened in the same way that genius has been cheapened, but I do feel it's useful to try to maintain a distinction. (FWIW, although I don't know you I would accept that you are one of the few here who would be likely to fall into my strict category of bilingual.)

[DrStraw]

Even for natives there is a large range of variation, yet the dimmest native will know much more about these kinds of things than the typical fluent foreigner.

Bantari: since you quoted the above, may I assume you also read it?

I have been involved with languages professionally almost all my life. In my circles there is a big difference between bilingual (relatively rare) and fluent (very common). Fluency, commendable as it is, to me is only about language(-processing) skill. Being bilingual is rather about having a similar range of comfort as a native in all normal situations, a large proportion of that (as I implied) being from cultural accretions.

I repeat that I regard the difference as pertinent to the OP, as I'd regard amateur go levels as equivalent to 'fluent' and only upper pro levels as equivalent to "bilingual".

I might add, by the way, that I recognise that the word bilingual is being cheapened in the same way that genius has been cheapened, but I do feel it's useful to try to maintain a distinction. (FWIW, although I don't know you I would accept that you are one of the few here who would be likely to fall into my strict category of bilingual.)

I have spent 28 years of my live in UK and 33 in US (plus one in Iran). I can comfortably understand the idiom of either country. But after all the time I have been in the US there are still phrases everyone here uses which would never occur to me to use, even though I understand them. And I still use British phrases without even thinking about it. People seem to understand me for the most part but once in a while I stump people. I consider myself totally bilingual in American and British English, but according to John's criteria I am not sure I qualify.

When it comes to culture I think I tend to be more British oriented because that is how I was raised. My wife of over 20 years complains about my Britishness sometimes. I still love cricket but have never seen a baseball or basketball game, even on TV. I do think there is a need to distinguish between multilingual and multicultural.

[John Fairbairn]

I consider myself totally bilingual in American and British English, but according to John's criteria I am not sure I qualify.

If you play go under Japanese rules and I play go under Chinese rules, we are both playing go. If an American speaks English and I speak English we are both speaking English. To talk about being bilingual in two versions of modern English seems daft to me. I have more trouble (but not much) understanding British children's slang than I do understanding American speakers. This seems to be the normal state in Britain/Australia/NZ/South Africa/Singapore/India etc. In my experience it is mostly Americans who pretend there is any practical difference, which may possibly be because they have not been exposed to the wealth of English accents in the Commonwealth the way we have in Britain. But the proof of the pudding is that Americans routinely listen to British actors, read British books, etc - all with essentially perfect understanding (and ditto, if less often for other varieties of English). It's true that Oprah Winfrey put subtitles up when she interviewed Susan Boyle, but plenty of British English speakers find some Scots speaker hard too.

That is not to say Americans and Brits prefer to say some things with different grammar, but that doesn't affect comprehension, and in both countries there are people of one class/generation who will use different grammar and vocabulary from people of another class/generation in the same country. I caught my daughter by surprise the other day when we were on a walk and saw a tiny bird. I told it was a Jenny Wren. She was totally baffled (but knew what a wren was). I was totally baffled that she was baffled, because I felt sure she must have heard that term as a child at least. It's not just me. A little earlier I had been speaking to a doctor who would be in-between us both as regards age, and she said she was Dr Wren. I said, "As in Christopher?" and she hooted with joy: "Yes - everybody else asks me if it's as in Jenny!" I'm sure my daughter and I could compile a very long list of words one of us knows and the other doesn't, words one uses and the other doesn't (fancy words for colours would provide many examples), words or phrases one prefers and the other doesn't, and all sorts of language-based things one knows and the other doesn't (e.g. to do with cooking or sport), but surely no-one, not even the wannabe winder-uppers on this forum, would seriously suggest my daughter and I speak different languages??????????????

Americans and Brits are of course different in a host of cultural ways, one of which may, as I suggest above, be a different response to the various versions of English.

[DrStraw]

If an American speaks English and I speak English we are both speaking English. To talk about being bilingual in two versions of modern English seems daft to me.

Sounds to me like you are back-peddling. I have a strong respect for most of your opinions, but on this one I must disagree.

[tentano]

The gulf between British, US, Canadian and Australian English is really overstated. Maybe if they have a few more centuries, it'll start to get unintelligible, but for now they seem awfully close. There's a handful of unique expressions and some specific vocabulary, but nothing so completely different that you would want to take lessons before traveling to one of those countries.

At least, the gap between British English and French or German seems considerably larger. I certainly wouldn't expect to understand French with only a solid understanding of English. And yet I've spoken with people from lots of different English-speaking countries without much trouble. I don't deny that there are some differences, but they seem little more than cosmetic to me. It's really nowhere near the same kind of barrier as speaking a different language entirely.

[DrStraw]

The gulf between British, US, Canadian and Australian English is really overstated. Maybe if they have a few more centuries, it'll start to get unintelligible, but for now they seem awfully close. There's a handful of unique expressions and some specific vocabulary, but nothing so completely different that you would want to take lessons before traveling to one of those countries.

At least, the gap between British English and French or German seems considerably larger. I certainly wouldn't expect to understand French with only a solid understanding of English. And yet I've spoken with people from lots of different English-speaking countries without much trouble. I don't deny that there are some differences, but they seem little more than cosmetic to me. It's really nowhere near the same kind of barrier as speaking a different language entirely.

Agreed. But the argument put forward was that without the cultural heritage you cannot be considered bilingual. That is what I am disagreeing with.

Although, I must admit that a person from the deep south in US may have trouble communicating with a Geordie. In fact, when I went for an interview at university as 17-year old I met a Geordie who was also interviewing and I thought we has a foreigner. I was from Yorkshire - less than 100 miles away.

[John Fairbairn]

Agreed. But the argument put forward was that without the cultural heritage you cannot be considered bilingual. That is what I am disagreeing with.

I have over 50 years very close experience with language professionals: translators, academics, diplomats, foreign correspondents... I think I have met only three who claimed to be bilingual, and one of those (a linguistics lecturer) was deluding himself because he had an accent so thick none us could understand him. Our other lecturers included UN interpreters. They did not claim to be bilingual. Their awe was reserved for a colleague who could interpret simultaneously between two languages while doing a crossword in a third language while in the booth. These people included several who were boastful of their language ability, but they had other ways of expressing it. One I was tickled by was a diplomat who kept repeating, "I speak Arabic, AND I read Arabic and write Arabic." Others would stress that they were PROFESSIONAL translators.

My language colleagues seemed to reserve bilingualism to describe having two native languages from birth. Myself, I relax the criteria a bit, but I still think the number of bilingual people I have met who were not born in that environment amounts to only between one and two dozen. The normal phrase I use to describe even the highest level of language ability acquired after birth is "totally fluent", but as I say I have softened my standards a little.

Just "fluent" is not all that high for me - say 1-dan amateur in go. This may be to do with the generation game. When I started learning languages the emphasis was on grammar ("construe this Latin, boy!") and speaking was almost an optional extra. Even at university courses would emphasise literature, arts, religion - actually speaking was for the proles.

That changed over several decades so that now speaking is emphasised heavily and cultural aspects are relatively neglected. Whether that's good or bad is obviously a matter of opinion, but I do notice that one feature of people who are proud of being "fluent" is that they are rather poor at reading what is written. We see that all the time on this forum. They just seem to "flow" over a text and get merely an impression of what they read, and answer that instead of what was actually written. I also think the lack of deeper understanding of foreign cultures is potentially harmful, although it is masked somewhat by the whole world now becoming more and more uniform, and of course more people do travel and broaden the mind nowadays.

I also remember Margaret Thatcher complaining bitterly, in the early days of dealing with Gorbachev, that there was nobody in Britain's universities who could explain the Soviet economy properly to her. There were plenty of people who spoke Russian fluently and others who knew the economics jargon, but none who had the necessary cultural background to convey what it meant to be a Soviet person having to survive on a daily basis in the USSR.

But hey (to use an Americanism), I can get around the USA without a dictionary or an interpreter. Wow! (another Americanism - does this fluency mean I'm bilingual?) Seriously? (another Americanism - make that multilingual, and I might as well claim to be 9-dan go pro while I'm at it since I could solve the tsumego tami posted today instantly).

[EdLee]

From Multilingualism --

The definition of multilingualism is a subject of debate in the very same way as the definition of language fluency.

I'm probably zerolingual: I speak zero languages fluently.

[wineandgolover]

From NALDIC:

Definitions of bilingualism range from a minimal proficiency in two languages, to an advanced level of proficiency which allows the speaker to function and appear as a native-like speaker of two languages. A person may describe themselves as bilingual but may mean only the ability to converse and communicate orally. Others may be proficient in reading in two or more languages (or bi-literate). A person may be bilingual by virtue of having grown up learning and using two languages simultaneously (simultaneous bilingualism). Or they may become bilingual by learning a second language sometime after their first language. This is known as sequential bilingualism. To be bilingual means different things to different people.

Since we are discussing learning a second language and its relation to go, I think the OP clearly meant sequential bilingualism, not simultaneous. Everything John says is undoubtedly true, but unreasonably changes the goal posts initially set. A pedantic drift, if you will.

[EdLee]

NALDIC

[Shako]

I think when become very accomplished in a second language you realise how far from being bilingual you are. I too jnow translators and interpreters who wouldn't dream of calling themselves 'bilingual' (although many people use the word on their CVs .

For me (perhaps like John), it's the idea of
"able to use two languages especially with equal fluency e.g. bilingual in English and Japanese" that distinguishes 'bilingual' from 'fluent', 'skillful' or 'natural'.

I've only met a handful people I consider truly bilingual, most had parents of different nationalities, the others changed countries while they were still in the school system.

I recognise that others here are using the word bilingual in a much broader sense...

[Bonobo]

When I was a child, I lived in Kerala, South India, and I spoke English and Malayalam quite fluently, together with my German mother tongue. Since we had contact to British and US-American people, I learnt to imitate their respective accents and intonation (I could even emulate that singular Scotsman tea planter with whom I lived for a week’s vacation), and I remember how I baffled the adults b/c I could switch from British to US to Indian English (retroflexes and all) at will, but of course not in all depth of idioms. I still can speak English so that some people think I’m British, or so that some think I’m American. Of course I know that I lack a LOT to be fluent in any variant of English today.

But … before I thought I grew up trilingually, should I now elevate myself to view that as quinto(?)lingual? I don’t think so.

[i3ullseye]

I don't think the differences on English are over stated.... quite the contrary. The whole dialog about a Jenny Wren or Christopher.... both are foreign to me. But that in no way means my proficiency in English is lacking. It means I am unaware of a cultural reference.

And I also do not think with time it will get worse. With the modern ease of communication, like we are doing here, it is getting better if anything. People in America watch BBC television far more frequently. Good drama from the USA is watched world wide. Etc... We are MORE exposed to all the variations now than ever, and we adapt and learn.

So this all started about Go right?

I think the same can be said of Go. As it has spread across the globe, and books have been translated into more and more languages, I think the differences between the 3 main styles has diminished. There are still subtle differences, scoring differences, phrases used, etc... but the Japanese words seem to be dominant in most places now. The Go world as a whole, as they are being exposed to all variations, are settling on a global norm if you will. But like language, the different 'flavors' of Go are actually different dialects of the same root language, and not new languages in and of themselves.

[quantumf]

I've only met a handful people I consider truly bilingual, most had parents of different nationalities, the others changed countries while they were still in the school system.

I would consider myself pretty bilingual, even in John's stricter definition. In my country (South Africa) I was obliged to learn two languages (English/Afrikaans). While that is hardly unusual, I think it's true in many European countries too, I was fortunate that I learn to speak both before I was five. I don't recall the exact circumstances, but I gather I started with one language (Afrikaans) until I was about 3 and then switched to the other (English) after that. English remained my preferred language, but even in my final year at school, I was taking the first language Afrikaans classes (i.e. the class taught to those pupils who preferred to use Afrikaans as their first language). While my professional and social life is largely English, I retain sufficient familiarity with the idioms, shortenings and slang and can read, write and converse in Afrikaans, with an appropriate accent.

A definition of fluency I like is "do you dream in that language?"

[Boidhre]

A definition of fluency I like is "do you dream in that language?"

I like "do you find yourself talking to yourself in that language?"