The future of KGS

[DrStraw]

Has anyone ever put up a survey here as to which servers members use? Not that the people here are necessarily a good cross-section of the entire online go playing populace. But it may be interesting.

[Knotwilg]

I hypothesize that many players are just waiting for the bots to open.
There is a general fear to play human opponents online. When playing a bot, you know he's not going to misbehave and if he does it's due to a bug in the program, not some troll trying to psyche you out.
As so often, the fear of mean opponents is worse than the problem itself, with the decrease in open human games as a result.

[skydyr]

I think you may not see that many open games as well because people are using the automatch instead of posting custom games.

[DrStraw]

I think you may not see that many open games as well because people are using the automatch instead of posting custom games.

This is a good point. I had forgotten about automatch as I have never used it. I just looked (at 9pm EST) and there are over 60 automatch games in progress. I would never have thought it was used that much.,

[pasky]

I still like KGS a lot, but using desktop Java is just such a pain. I think many people nowadays just do not install Java on their PC at all, maybe? It hogs memory, the applet keeps requesting updates and few desktop apps require it nowadays. Then, installing it just for KGS is something they probably will not want to do.

I think gradually, the stronger players are flocking away to Tygem and Wbaduk, since you have such a wide range of very strong opponents and high-level games to watch and the clients are getting more accessible over time. At the same time, the beginners seem to be rapidly moving to OGS - I only re-discovered the server recently and while it has still many glitches, the completely web-based environment is extremely accessible (you don't need to install anything and you can play from anywhere, behind firewalls(!) etc.) and its community seems to be gaining momentum. Overally, I have been quite impressed by OGS, though dan players will feel a little lonely (it's still usually possible to get a game with a low dan if you are fine with waiting 5-10 minutes, though).

(I don't know about IGS, it is filling a niche I never quite understood - there's no community, there's not many very strong players, but then its protocol is open which is a huge asset as many generic Go apps support playing over there - I also played my first games on IGS because I didn't want to install anything and Java repelled me.)

It's a pity because KGS has such a strong community feeling. But to me it appears pretty clear at this point that unless it evolves it will not be around in 10 years, and it seems that evolving it is above the means of a single developer. It's a little fossilized now and needs to do some big changes and I'm not sure there is a will to go through with that. We'll see!

[quantumf]

https://plus.google.com/+Gokgs/posts

WMS is working on a JavaScript port of KGS, but it's been roughly two years now, and still no sign of a beta release. I'm a little doubtful that he'll ever get it done, particularly if he insists on being the only developer. OGS has improved steadily over the last couple of years, and it's going to be hard for KGS to catch up. Mostly, the only advantage it has is the community. That is powerful, but from what I can tell, many of them will be reluctant to move to a browser based GUI, despite the overwhelming advantages (I believe) it offers.

[pasky]

I think saying that the only advantage of KGS is the community is a little harsh. OGS has plenty of glitches, ranging from the semi-broken bot support, over many many confusing glitches connected to the multiple user ranks, to reviews just not being nearly as convenient as on KGS (due to a lot of details like hotkeys, forward/backward not remembering the last taken branch, and so on).

KGS is very mature and polished software compared to that, and getting there is a lot more work on various details than it sounds. OGS just has a lot more development momentum now. (And, OGS is not open source either, sadly...)

[quantumf]

I think saying that the only advantage of KGS is the community is a little harsh.

Fine I did say mostly. Granted, KGS is a little more polished in certain areas, and those will take time to catch up. Allowing for that, however, I don't think KGS has any killer features that OGS does not have, apart from a large community. On the other hand, OGS has many features that KGS does not have, ranging from trivial (country flags) to sophisticated (custom tournaments).

It's also worth bearing in mind that a KGS port will also take a long time to polish. Granted, the services are in place, but JavaScript review tools etc. will take time to polish.

[Inkwolf]

There is a general fear to play human opponents online. When playing a bot, you know he's not going to misbehave and if he does it's due to a bug in the program, not some troll trying to psyche you out.
As so often, the fear of mean opponents is worse than the problem itself, with the decrease in open human games as a result.

Some of us are more afraid of playing an awful game and looking like a moron than anything the opponent might do. (Though the guy who asked me if I was reading ahead AT ALL didn't help.) I think the real reason I left playing online for so long is when I first got to rank 10kyu, and felt I didn't have the chops to hang on to it. Every game I played, I knew I was not playing up the level my opponents would expect of me. And every time I played a perfectly awful game, I felt like a fraud.

So glad I got over that....mostly.

Bots are non-judgmental and if you self-atari your whole group, you at least know it is not sneering at you in contempt and wondering how you ever managed to get your current rank.

[wineandgolover]

Bots are non-judgmental and if you self-atari your whole group, you at least know it is not sneering at you in contempt and wondering how you ever managed to get your current rank.

Your self-atari might be just the impetus that Skynet needs for self-awareness and hatred of humanity. Be wary!

[peti29]

The automatch thing just might be the reason! I didn't think about it as I never use it. But yesterday I tried it and in less then a second I was already playing a game. Neat.
However somehow I still prefer the custom game offer. But at least it seems I now know where all the players are. (Because it was strange that while game offers were scarce it seemed that many games were playing.)

[oren]

The automatch thing just might be the reason! I didn't think about it as I never use it. But yesterday I tried it and in less then a second I was already playing a game. Neat.

Automatch has been the only thing I've been using for years. I had been wondering why so many people do custom game requests except to play specific people.

[Inkwolf]

When I was a beginner, there were lots of lower-level people to play. I never understood why someone would use Automatch, where you have little idea ahead of time what you were getting into. With a custom game, you can set the time you want, and (if you want, though I almost never refuse a match) turn down people you don't want to play.

I totally forgot it, too, due to never using it. I have passed on the information to my club newbies, though, in the hope they can find more humans to play.

[Boidhre]

You could always pick what time you wanted on automatch, 10m+5x10, 20m+5x30 or whatever presets were there. What was probably happening to you was you weren't unchecking some of the boxes.

[skydyr]

You could always pick what time you wanted on automatch, 10m+5x10, 20m+5x30 or whatever presets were there. What was probably happening to you was you weren't unchecking some of the boxes.

I have to second this. Setting the options are vital, so that you know you are playing someone within X ranks of yourself and only at time setting A or B.