I'm tenuously clinging to 1d on KGS. It seems to me like I tried to be too clever in the upper right, fell behind early, but then black played a bit slack and let me catch up. In the end it wasn't enough and I still lost. I put my thoughts in the sgf; any comments would be helpful.
Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
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emeraldemon
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Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
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Bill Spight
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
A few comments and variations, mainly on the right side.
Edit: I changed my mind.
Edit: I changed my mind.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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skydyr
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
I've made some comments below.
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moyoaji
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
To me, this game seems like it is all about cutting and connecting. The player who does this better is the one that will win. I am only about 2-3k, so perhaps my analysis is inaccurate, but I'll give my thoughts anyway.
- This move looks horrible. Aji keshi to an extreme level. Why black chose to peep this cut so early, I don't know. Yes, he gets a "wall" toward his enclosure, but that wall does not secure him points. Instead, it simply makes white locally alive and strong.
- This seems like very poor direction of play. O3 is low and white's strong group above the corner will prevent black from building anything substantial on the bottom. It is also inconsistent. Black said with his little wall that he wanted to build toward the top. Why did he not approach at F17?
- You are correct. The cut is the only move I can see here. Also, as a follow up, why not press black at R11 and jump to P10? It better surrounds black's stones and leaves more aji against black's upper right.
- This is the right idea. Black is keeping you disconnected.
- This move seems odd. Why not jump to P13? I understand that you don't want R10 to be an eye, but if black takes gote to make that an eye now you can play some nice reduction/settling moves like S16 because your group is out.
- It is good that your goal was to keep black separated. But don't forget what is important here. The white stone at R14 is doing an amazing job of reducing black. If you are going to sacrifice it, you must get just compensation.
- I think saving at Q12 is bigger than following up on your threat. Once black has that ponnuki all hope of reduction/invasion in the upper right is lost.
- This seems like a fine move. You are splitting black in half on the bottom and black's only choice is to connect on top with M4 and allow you to fight for life there.
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No. Absolutely not. Your opponent needs to read "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" Chapter 2. This move should almost never be used and this is not a situation to use it. After you extend to N4 his corner is in serious trouble.
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Why? You are keeping your stones behind enemy lines. Your white group at P6 is very strong. Standing up here all but connects you to it and then you can go to town with moves like S3, J3, K5, or any number of interesting follow ups. What is the follow up to this? A hane at O4 that black would need to be mental to allow you to have?
- Thank goodness one of you played a reasonable move here. Now black's corner is much stronger and white's stones are in jeopardy. Creative moves are not required in basic situations like this. Keep your stones connected, stay strong, and don't let your opponent take vital shape points.
- Alas, this move comes too late. Black will not allow you to connect anymore.
- I think the only option now is to sacrifice the white stones. Leave that position and move on. C9 is a large move at this point. L15 is also important to help against top-side invasions.
- If black connects solidly here, I don't see how this will ever end well for white. The group has no eye potiential and nowhere to run. Yet white has made it heavy. If black stays strong, white will be forced to run for the next 30 moves. Not a fun game.
- This move looks horrible. Aji keshi to an extreme level. Why black chose to peep this cut so early, I don't know. Yes, he gets a "wall" toward his enclosure, but that wall does not secure him points. Instead, it simply makes white locally alive and strong. - This seems like very poor direction of play. O3 is low and white's strong group above the corner will prevent black from building anything substantial on the bottom. It is also inconsistent. Black said with his little wall that he wanted to build toward the top. Why did he not approach at F17? - You are correct. The cut is the only move I can see here. Also, as a follow up, why not press black at R11 and jump to P10? It better surrounds black's stones and leaves more aji against black's upper right. - This is the right idea. Black is keeping you disconnected. - This move seems odd. Why not jump to P13? I understand that you don't want R10 to be an eye, but if black takes gote to make that an eye now you can play some nice reduction/settling moves like S16 because your group is out. - It is good that your goal was to keep black separated. But don't forget what is important here. The white stone at R14 is doing an amazing job of reducing black. If you are going to sacrifice it, you must get just compensation. - I think saving at Q12 is bigger than following up on your threat. Once black has that ponnuki all hope of reduction/invasion in the upper right is lost. - This seems like a fine move. You are splitting black in half on the bottom and black's only choice is to connect on top with M4 and allow you to fight for life there. - No. Absolutely not. Your opponent needs to read "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" Chapter 2. This move should almost never be used and this is not a situation to use it. After you extend to N4 his corner is in serious trouble. - Why? You are keeping your stones behind enemy lines. Your white group at P6 is very strong. Standing up here all but connects you to it and then you can go to town with moves like S3, J3, K5, or any number of interesting follow ups. What is the follow up to this? A hane at O4 that black would need to be mental to allow you to have? - Thank goodness one of you played a reasonable move here. Now black's corner is much stronger and white's stones are in jeopardy. Creative moves are not required in basic situations like this. Keep your stones connected, stay strong, and don't let your opponent take vital shape points. - Alas, this move comes too late. Black will not allow you to connect anymore. - I think the only option now is to sacrifice the white stones. Leave that position and move on. C9 is a large move at this point. L15 is also important to help against top-side invasions. - If black connects solidly here, I don't see how this will ever end well for white. The group has no eye potiential and nowhere to run. Yet white has made it heavy. If black stays strong, white will be forced to run for the next 30 moves. Not a fun game."You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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oren
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
13 has been recommended by my teacher, Inseong Hwang. You will not peep from the other side, so it's not aji keshi.moyoaji wrote:To me, this game seems like it is all about cutting and connecting. The player who does this better is the one that will win. I am only about 2-3k, so perhaps my analysis is inaccurate, but I'll give my thoughts anyway.
17 can be aji keshi since you have two ways to block in sente.
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Uberdude
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Really Inseong says always peep right after the slide? There are other choices than peep from the other side that make it aji kesji, for example:oren wrote:13 has been recommended by my teacher, Inseong Hwang. You will not peep from the other side, so it's not aji keshi.moyoaji wrote:To me, this game seems like it is all about cutting and connecting. The player who does this better is the one that will win. I am only about 2-3k, so perhaps my analysis is inaccurate, but I'll give my thoughts anyway.
17 can be aji keshi since you have two ways to block in sente.
(White can do this (or 2 as kosumi) to stay connected but loses eyeshape, black could also do a before 3)
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oren
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Certainly not always, but there is nothing wrong with doing it either is the point. It's an option to immediately trade the peep. A quick database search shows it can be done fairly early in the game.Uberdude wrote:
Really Inseong says always peep right after the slide? There are other choices than peep from the other side that make it aji kesji, for example:
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Boidhre
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Isn't specifically for when you want influence up the right side though? In exchange for life for white and your corner being a bit weaker?oren wrote:Certainly not always, but there is nothing wrong with doing it either is the point. It's an option to immediately trade the peep. A quick database search shows it can be done fairly early in the game.Uberdude wrote:
Really Inseong says always peep right after the slide? There are other choices than peep from the other side that make it aji kesji, for example:
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oren
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
You can also block towards the middle later. That's why he suggests leaving 17 decision for later.Boidhre wrote: Isn't specifically for when you want influence up the right side though? In exchange for life for white and your corner being a bit weaker?
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Boidhre
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Are you sure it was with O3 not O4?oren wrote:You can also block towards the middle later. That's why he suggests leaving 17 decision for later.Boidhre wrote: Isn't specifically for when you want influence up the right side though? In exchange for life for white and your corner being a bit weaker?
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Kirby
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
oren wrote: 13 has been recommended by my teacher, Inseong Hwang. You will not peep from the other side, so it's not aji keshi.
I think 13 is good, and I prefer double approach to the jump white made:
Above is joseki. Now let's say black deviates:
Kind of weird, huh? Well, then let's say black plays here:
Reasonable response, since white didn't play 'a'.
Then white slides under.
This can't be as good as the simple joseki shown in the first diagram. Add to that the aji of the peep, etc., and ways black can take advantage of the group, I prefer black.
So I'd prefer as white to double approach.
be immersed
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Uberdude
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Well, assuming you are correctly reflecting Inseong's views, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with him. I think there is something wrong with peeping and then tenuki, and indeed I found no examples of professionals doing that in ps.waltheri.net. If they peep they continue. By peeping you lose the option to cut the one point jump in that sequence I showed (or more likely to gobble the corner stone or separate the slide in an exchange).oren wrote:Certainly not always, but there is nothing wrong with doing it either is the point. It's an option to immediately trade the peep. A quick database search shows it can be done fairly early in the game.Uberdude wrote:
Really Inseong says always peep right after the slide? There are other choices than peep from the other side that make it aji kesji, for example:
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Kirby
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
I attended at least one lecture where he discussed this, and from my perspective, the point was more about the fact that it's an outdated joseki than anything else. The peep, etc., are reasons that it's not as good of a shape for white, so it's not joseki anymore.Uberdude wrote: Really Inseong says always peep right after the slide? There are other choices than peep from the other side that make it aji kesji
Like all old joseki, though, depending on the board position, it could be good.
And when he showed the peep, he didn't tenuki after that. From my interpretation, this was just something that could be done to take advantage of white's shape, and it's one of the reasons it's not joseki for white anymore.
be immersed
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Boidhre
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
Was chatting to oren elsewhere, we're talking about different positions:
He was saying you can tenuki as black after exchanging these moves and white has many problems in their shape:
There are examples of tenuki here.
He was saying you can tenuki as black after exchanging these moves and white has many problems in their shape:
There are examples of tenuki here.
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ez4u
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Re: Help me understand my loss (1d v 1d)
What did you think would happen if you answered 37 with 38 as below? White has 'a' and 'b' as miai IMHO. If Black plays 'a', White answers with 'c' before going back to 'b'.
Dave Sigaty
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