why not joseki + what about this move ?

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otenki
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why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by otenki »

Aparently 4 is bad for black but i'm not sure why...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Also if you go this route you can get:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Howhever what if black play this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I don't even see how this 9 is doable for white ...

Thanks!
Otenki
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Bki
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by Bki »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This peep?
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skydyr
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by skydyr »

The reason why it's not joseki is that white's original pincering stone is not under much pressure, but it's blocking black exactly where black would want to extend to secure eyespace. If you look at the 5-4 joseki where black attaches as in your diagram, black follows it up with an extension down the left side. White's pincer stone here blocks that, so black has to move into the center, but he doesn't have clear eyespace, he's not exerting a lot of pressure on the white upperside group, and the left side stone is light and flexible.

Regarding your :b10: I think that black's shape is a bit too weak for this. White should be able to peep and cut or something similar, without reading into it too much.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi otenki, the order also matters; a common sequence:
( Rotated for space :) )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b8: pincer around grey regions
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 , 2 . . 3 . ? ? .
$$ | . 7 6 a . . . . . ? ? .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | -----------------------[/go]
B exchanges :b6: with :w7: , but does not pull back at (a), and pincers instead.
Pulling back to (a), like :b6: in your 2nd diagram, may be heavy for B.

Later, if W ataris at (a) = :wc:, then B blocks at :b1: .
If W does not capture, B can drop to :b3: .
Now B has miai of (b) and (c):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O b X . . O .
$$ | . O X W 1 . . . .
$$ | . . 3 c . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | -----------------[/go]
( If :w2: does capture at :b3: , then B has blocked at :b1: in sente. )
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Uberdude
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by Uberdude »

Answer at a. Easy peasy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
P.S. this is consistent with the laid back 9, simply connecting. You could also think about more aggressive moves for 9 like cutting black's thin 2 space jump.
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ez4u
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by ez4u »

otenki wrote:...

Also if you go this route you can get:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
...

Thanks!
Otenki
Normally we end up with this 9 instead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Dave Sigaty
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otenki
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by otenki »

ez4u wrote:
otenki wrote:...

Also if you go this route you can get:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
...

Thanks!
Otenki
Normally we end up with this 9 instead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Two space high pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
That makes a lot of sense, in that case josekipedia should be updated :-)
http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdodldqcrcpcreogqh

Cheers,
Otenki
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otenki
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Re: why not joseki + what about this move ?

Post by otenki »

Thanks for the replies guys... gives me things to think about and check !

Cheers,
Otenki
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